While we are discussing armament rules for CVs in the Shinano thread, I want to get some discussion on battling rules. Specifically, how we are going to be doing scoring and conducting scenarios. Some clubs count holes, and award different points per hole based on where the hole is. Others just count sinks. I think that some kind of scoring is necessary (otherwise, no incentive for keeping convoys afloat) (unless the convoy itself is a win/lose objective). Any ideas?
We need Mikey D's input here. He mentioned a few things on this topic during my visit to his area a couple weeks ago. Good stuff too.
All Although I have been posting some info on some of the rules discussions lately, I haven't been taking the time to post my oppinions on the discusions, mainly because I like the rules already. I don't see the need to go changing a lot of stuff before we have a chance to have some battles, and see what works, and what doesn't. Now in the case of the carriers, and scoring/scenarios and such, where the rules haven't been addressed, then that is a different matter. But as for speeds, and such... well, we already have a rule for speeds. Having run some big-gun ships in the past, I can tell you that the slower ships will be really slow, and we will more than likely need to address that with something like Phil suggested with a speed chart kinda like Treaty uses. I plan to build a Bearn aircraft-carrier, and don't care if we don't allow cannons for the aircraft complement. The Bearn would currently get 8 bb cannons, which is quite a lot of firepower, when you compare it to a Yamato in small gun. So I am not saying that we can't change the rules. Nor am I saying that we shouldn't change the rules. But I can say that I think the rules are pretty well thought out (with the exception of those not already put in place). I personally think we should have some battles before we make changes to any of the existing rules. I am heading out to the boat-shop for the day, and will post some thoughts on the scoring/scenario discussion later. I will be working on both Strasbourg, and Mogador at the same time, and will try to post some up-to-date photos this weekend. Mikey
Mikey, remember the BG battle story you were telling me? I liked the idea of that format. I do agree with Mikey that any serious rule changes should probably wait until after the first battle has been run. Well, except I would like to see a workable carrier armament thing.
We need to at least get a basic idea on: 1) How do we keep score 2) What guns are carriers allowed to carry I'm not talking about engraving stuff in stone, but we can't ask people to build ships without any idea of what armament is legal. It's not fair, given the time, money, and emotional investment put into a ship.
To start with while these rules are being hashed out, I can arm all the weapons over 3". The guns to simulate aircraft (of which I've already expressed my opinion on) can easily be added at a later date since they're located under the flight deck and do not interfere with the structure. One more question though in regards to construction, the structure that is above the original hull cap rail/deck (hanger deck and up), dose that need to be covered with balsa or can it be made solid? Will I end up with 2 cap-rails/decks (original and flight decks) with balsa "windows" in between? How have others built their carriers in the other formats. In WW2, didn't most carriers start out as cruisers and later converted? Any thoughts?
Back to the senario thing ... Mikey was telling me some stories of some big gun battles. If I understood it right, the game format was something like a continous long block of time (3 - 4 hours?) in which either team would/could run convoys for points. I don't rmember if Mikey said anything about scoring other than convoy runs. I'm hoping he or another big gun guy can clarify.
In big gun we ran convoy runs during the normal battels whenever we could. I trip around the pond was good for 1000 points on the bearn. Yhe destroyers had to do two laos and they scored less. You could only run a convoy run every 30 minitues per ship.Combat damage was subtracted from the score.Fast carriers had to do 2 laps.IF you ran convoy you had to run convoy speed for slow ships and were armed only with guns above 3 inch as on original.
Each Big Gun club has its own sort of scoring system, with different point values for different things. However, there are a few parallels: 1) Points are awarded for holes in ship hulls 2) Points for holes vary depending on where they are, red hits are worth more than black hits, which are worth more than grey hits 3) Points are awarded for sinking ships 4) Points for sinking ships varies depending on the tonnage of the sunken ship (more tons gets more points, fewer tons gets fewer points) 5) Points are awarded for completing convoy runs 6) Points for convoy runs vary depending on the club. Some award points for ship length, others for tonnage, others at a flat rate. The WWCC has experimented with targets on the transports, but rejected the idea. 7) Additional points may be scored based on mission-specific tasks, penalties, etc. Here's an example. In the WWCC, the points for holes are 3 pts per grey, 5 pts per black, and 10 pts per red hit. Sink points are 20 pts for ships under 20K tons, 40 pts for ships under 30K tons, 60 pts for ships under 50K tons, and 80 pts for ships over 50K tons. Slow convoy ships (25 knots or below) earn 20 pts per lap, while the fast convoy ships (APDs, liners, etc) earn 10 pts per lap. Various fouls have penalties, including failure to launch, surrender, and several penalties for ramming. Most battles in the WWCC are about 15-20 minutes of ferocious fighting, followed by a break to repair the survivors and recover the dead, and total scores for those battles average between 100 and 300 points for a team. The WWCC also has one or more Campaign Battles during the year, lasting 2 hours. These Campaign Battles are much longer, and see much more team-oriented strategy. Scores for a team are usually greater than 1000 points.
Just to make sure that there is no confusion. I am all for working up some rules for scoring/scenario, and carriers. I was reffering to making changes to any of the current rules that are in place. Anyhow. Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, but I have been too busy. I also feel that I posted the original post in the worng place. Sorry again. Mikey
In the MBG our battles started at say 10am, and ran till around 4-6pm. Sometimes we would take a break for lunch, or have non-capitalship hour at noon where only the carriers and below could participate. We had shore targets, that could be bombarded for points. Convoys could run all day, but required a break between runs (anywhere from 15-30 mins). Ships that ran convoy speed had to run around the markers (bouys) and make it back to port in order to score convoy points. Fast transports like liners, destroyers and such had to make two laps. If a team ran three ships together, they scored extra points. Aircraft carriers could score convoy points for transporting aircraft. I found this to be more fun than the small-gun sortie battles, as if allowed each and every captain to participate as much as he (or she) preferred. One could lay back and take it easy, and run a couple convoy missions, in between running their warship a few times, or one could literally spend the entire day on the water, running several convoy missions (possibly 10-12), in between running their warship several times. It also gave captains incintive to build multiple ships (both warships, and convoyships). And even more incintive to build multi-task ships like destroyers-fast transports, aircraft-carriers and such. In my best years, I ran a Jean Bart as my primary warship. A Bearn aircraft-carrier as my back-up warship/convoyship, and either a Le-Terrible class destroyer as a warship/fast transport, or a cruiser for running down the fast transports of the opposing team. When the day was done, I would have all of my boats shot to pieces, with almost dead batteries, and was totally exhausted. But on the ride home, we would talk about the lessons learned, and make plans for the next battle. What fun. What memories. Let's battle. Mikey
