Long live the Predreadnought Revolution! Over the past few months, I have been reviewing Conway's 1860-1905 to create a list of predreadnought ships for a modified version of Big Gun combat. So far, I have covered most of the major navies (except Italy, which I haven't entered yet). My goal is to include all information important for Big Gun combat, including dimensions, displacement, armor and armor type, armament, propulsion (speed, props, and rudders), and any other relevant data. I have limited my list to ships that I believe are possible to build in 1:144 scale, and I have included battleships, armored cruisers, and protected cruisers. Alas, though my list nears completion, some of my data is incomplete. My fellow predreadnought enthusiasts, I need your help! I need help filling in some of the blanks and correcting errors I may have made. Specifically, 1) Conways does not list Length Overall (LOA) for all ships. In some cases it gives length between perpendiculars (pp) and in other cases it gives waterline length (lwl). I am trying to gather LOA data for all ships in the list. 2) Conways does not mention armor type for all ships. Since armor type (wood, steel, nickel steel, compound, Harvey, Krupp) played an important role in ships of this era, I want to represent that in scale. I know my information British, German, and French armor types is accurate, but some of my entries on Japanese, American, and Austro-hungarian armor types are guesses, and I know for a fact that some of my Russian armor types are wrong. 3) Rudders. Conways does not mention rudders. I have filled in as much as possible based on my own plans collection, but this data column is far from complete. 4) Additional ships? Are there any ships that I should be including, that I haven't? I've stayed away from sailing ships, turret ships, central battery ships, and other ships of the early "ironclad" age, but if there are some ships that you think should be listed and aren't, let me know so I can add them. You can review the predreadnought ship list as it currently stands here: http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/Portal...20List.xls
When I was working on a similar project for 1/96 wondered about how to take the different armor values into account. I have some of the reprints of the early 20th century Jane's. They give an armor rating for the ships to be used in his naval war game. I will check and see what I can find about the different protective factors of the various types of armor when I get back to Baton Rouge this weekend. LONG LIVE THE PREDREADNOUGHT REVOLUTION!!!! btw is the 1870's HMS Dreadnought available? That would be a great one!
Very groovy. I am debating between Pommern, Courbet, and Evstafi. Courbet has hella good firepower under our rules. Pommern is more in keeping with my Axis meme though.
You might want to add Apraxin/Ushakov/Senyavin Russian coast defense ships. I have alway liked those. I can't wait for you to get to Italy. They have some odd ones. Regina Elena is another one I like 2x12" but 12x8" guns. Fast too, not sure if she is faster than Swiftsure or not. Do you have HMS Powerful plans? Do you know anyone who does? I know some one in Australia built one but I've never seen a plans set for it.
I'll look into adding the suggested ships, and correct the mistake on the Royal Sovereign's guns. I'm not sure it's possible to fit rotating cannons into the old Dreadnought, though, due to its low freeboard. I've got a number of plans for predreadnoughts, including Mikasa, Borodino, Retvizan, Peresvyet, and King Edward VII. I also have a few scans of original plans for German predreadnoughts, but not very many ribs for them. I may try to fill in the gaps with Delftship free CAD software, though. Unfortunately I do not have HMS Powerful plans, or any other armored cruisers.
Yes, the monitor type hulls will be a problem. I have HMS Victoria plans, but she has the low freeboard problem which would make her hard to arm.
Hmmm.... To build my next 1/144 battleship, or a 1/144 predread, or a 1/96 predread. That is the question. I have a 1/144 Pommern on the shelf about 1/3 done (thin balsa on carboard frames awaiting 'glassing). Karl, is your format allowing rotating turrets like big gun, albeit with BB cannons like fast gun?
Tugboat, you've got a Pommern plug under construction? Cool! That's one of my favorite predreadnoughts. Rules-wise, I haven't set anything in stone yet. Since I'm already a member of the largest US Big Gun club, one of my goals is to maintain as much compatibility as possible with the regular Big Gun ruleset, while adapting for the predreadnought era. So far, my goals are: *maintaining the standard Big Gun weapons chart and ROF rules *Converting armor values to their Krupp-steel equivalencies, then using the standard Big Gun armor chart *using true Dynamic Similitude Speed, instead of the 63%-of-scale Big Gun chart, to allow predreadnoughts to use their historical speeds. By maintaining as much compatibility as possible, I hope to lure locals with the promise of participating in regular Big Gun events with a simple speed change. I see no problem with you using a smaller caliber of guns, especially if it lets you use your ship in an already-established club. BTW, did you know that the Big Gun cannons made by BDE (and soon to be produced by Strike Models) are almost a perfect fit for most predreadnought battleships? It's a somewhat tight fit in a Mikasa (with no extra depth) and the standard double-layer magazine. Stephen has also told me he is willing and able to build cannons with a single-layer magazine for ships with less internal height.
When is Strike going to have their big guns available? That simplifies things for the mechanically ill adept.
The first guns are available at http://www.strikemodels.com/products/cannon-big-gun/ . We haven't made a huge announcement yet as we're still updating the page with more information, and just have one version available now.
One thing that would be historic but a pain rules wise is have the big guns one some of the ships fire more slowly than the tables would indicate for their size. It may not be worth doing if you want to integrate the predreadnoughts in with newer ships but appropriate if they were the only ones on the water.
From checking my sources I have gleaned this information on armor effectiveness: D.K. Brown “Warrior to Dreadnought” p 150 15” Wrought Iron = 12” Compound Armor or 12” All Steel or 7.5” Harvey 5.75” Krupp ---------------------- Brassey’s Naval Annual 1900 p 317 Article discusses 6” plates Iron = 1 Mild Steel = 1.25 Harvey Steel = 2 (thick plates) Harvey Steel = 2.5? (thin plates) Krupp = 2.8 to 3.0. Some up to 3.33 Janes gives each ship an armor rating from f = 4" Iron to aaaa = greater than 12" Krupps Cemented. It should be noted that 12" 45 calibre guns are AAAAA which would penetrate aaaa armor at battle ranges of 3000 yards (Jane's Fighting Ships 1906-07)
Thanks for the information, Anachronus. That sort of information is exactly what I needed. I can use that to convert all the different armor types into their krupp equivalent, when I convert the rest of the full-scale data into model data.
