OK guys, I've got a technical question. At yesterday's WCC battle, we had to stop the festivities after the first sortie because we could not fill CO2 bottles. I got a good fill into Gascan's and my bottles for the first sortie, but when preparing for the second sortie nobody could get more than a single ounce of CO2 into their bottles, no matter the size. I tried every trick I know. I set the bottles in an ice chest for an hour. I filled one, and only got 1 ounce of CO2. So I vented that off until the bottle was heavily frosted and completely empty, and tried again. Again, only 1 ounce of CO2 into my 4-oz bottle. I tried the same thing with a 5-oz bottle, with identical results. I could not get more than a single ounce of CO2 into any of my bottles, even ones that could not possibly fit into my ship. Nobody else could get a useable amount of CO2 out either, and the club's CO2 tank was acting the same. When I got home after the battle, I did some further investigation. The bottle is clearly marked as having a siphon tube, so I know it is supposed to stand upright for proper filling. Then I put the tank on the scale. Comparing the measured weight to the stamped tare weight and to my measurement when I first got the bottle, I confirmed there is 11 lbs of CO2 left in this 20lb tank. It's still over half-full, but it was acting like it was empty! What's going on here? For reference, this was a nice Washington spring day with temperatures in the mid-60's. I've battled in much colder weather without problems.
Very weird, was the 20oz tank outside all night? Large tank gets cold its crappy fills till it warms up.
I had a bottle that was marked dip tube and the tube must have broke because it filled when I inverted the fill bottle.
I've been able to fill without difficulty in colder weather, so I don't think temperature is the problem. A broken siphon tube is a possibility, though. I hadn't considered the possibility. I'll do some tests tomorrow.
Check for leaks in the tubing between the main tank and the tank you are filling, also check for geometry that can act as a liquid trap then you just boil off the gas which is all that ends up in your tank... Also check the valves, if the handles have come loose and are no longer actually fully opening the valves on the fill station fully.. You are sure that the main tank was warm enough to have some reasonable pressure but not near/above the critical temperature for co2 (~31°C), as if you were at 80°F on the bottle, you should be around 40-50% of the mass in the gas phase, if I did the math correctly, which in some tanks I've seen with lets just say shorter siphon tubes, would put you near where the siphon stops working....
It sounds like a 20lb. tank problem. We do not use siphon tubes in our 20lb's Without a tube we emptied a 20lber at battle, I weight it., it had 5 lb of CO2 in it. I opened the valve, let it totally vent and found I could then get the last of the CO2 out. 5 lbs. of DEAD CO2 GAS. 20lbs of CO2 in tank = 15lbs for battle.
There are various sizes of disposable CO2 cartridges available, which would completely eliminate the bulk fill issues. Looked like you guys were running what would be equivalent to 38g CO2 cartridges and go up to 88-90g....more expensive yes, but 100% reliable. Most are also readily available on Amazon... Threaded 16g and 20g CO2 cartridges...
How many shots are u taking?? The 88-90g CO2 cartridges are known to get 500+/- shots out for basic BB guns @ $18 for 2... and those 90g CO2 are slimmer (but longer) than the CO2 bottles I saw being used.
it would be 50 per gun a total of 6 guns and I use two bottles for all 6. But you have to understand that basic BB guns flow barely any air compared to what our guns flow. Those cartridges wouldn’t be able to supply. Nearly enough air for all 6 guns I would have to have one per a gun or two per pair of guns so 3-6 in total which if it is three it is still about $27 per sortie and $54 per battle and about $108 per day which isn’t practical so like $260ish per battle weekend which is about a hotel stay so I’ll take having a rare problem that could be solved or we switch out a bottle over spending that much money.
I run a very competitive, high flow gun equipped battleship. 4, 50 shot guns that use about 9oz of CO2 per sortie. That's like 250g of CO2. I'm not sure what prepackaged CO2 options are available in that size but I can assure you whatever perceived issues you have of CO2 reliability aren't worth the cost.
That's great. It's not "perceived" I was THERE. A 4 sortie day reduced to ONE. If I had driven from a couple hrs away or more with a ship that needed bulk fill CO2, that would've been a waste of time. *shrugs shoulders*
Agreed and I'm sorry to hear of the spoiled day. Prepackaged CO2 seems really impractical for my needs, but that's me. I've been doing this for a couple years now and this is a very rare issue (lack of CO2). If you wanted to be able to adapt your boats to use cartridges in the event of failure that would be cool and I'm sure you'll rule the waves at that event. Lol
Now that you mention it there are adaptors that allow 90g cartridges to fit bulk fill connectors... JT 88g / 90g CO2 Adapter for Paintball Gun ASAs - Hogan's Alley Paintball (hogansalleypaintball.com) This adaptor allows 90g CO2 to be removed w/o dumping remaining CO2... would still need above adaptor Umarex 88 Gram CO2 Saver Adapter, Fits AirJavelin/850 M2 | Pyramyd Air Here's one to adapt 12g to paintball/bulk fill (would be good for system testing at least) RAP4 CO2 Quick Change Adapter - 12g (paintball-online.com) Most of the above are also listed on Amazon (and cheaper!) -Basically, if someone carried these adaptors in their tool box, they'd be well equip'd.
Request clarification - were you using a tank WITH or WITHOUT a siphon tube when those 5lbs were inaccessible? And were you able to resolve the issue by going without a siphon tube and mounting the tank upside-down? I just ran a few garage tests. 5oz bottle straight from the freezer, managed to put 2.5oz in. Not bad, but not enough. Vented the bottle, and flipped the fill tank upside-down. Tried again, still got 2.5oz. The fill tank was at garage ambient temperature, around 65F, while the 5oz bottle was fresh from the freezer. No sign of any leaks, and proper fill procedure was followed. The only reason I got more than 1oz into the bottle was due to its extended stay in the ice box inside my freezer. At this point, I am wondering how long the siphon tube is. If it doesn't go down far enough, then a lot of the liquid CO2 will be inaccessible. I'll discuss with the supplier next time I go there. Torp, it is exceedingly rare that a battle day gets cut short due to lack of CO2, and I do not believe in making the same mistake twice. If I need to upgrade to a larger tank, I'll do that. If I need to get a tank W/O a siphon tube and mount it upside-down, I'll do that. If I need to get a new tank when it's half-full, I'll do that. While lack of CO2 was the final nail in the coffin on Sunday, it was far from the only rare problem we had that day. Gascan had one out of three cannons working due to an intermittent electrical fault and a whole batch of bad bbs. I also had a nasty jam due to non-round bbs that took one of my cannons out for the day. I've shot tens of thousands of walmart bbs through my cannons and Sunday was the first time I've ever had a jam due to malformed rounds. Alex had a number of issues with his cruiser (as new construction ships often do), and the liberty ships broke down too. I think the sailing ship was the only one that worked 100%. While none of the problems (other than the CO2) was a show-stopper by itself, I think it was best that we didn't try to continue with almost every ship in a reduced status. We'll be back next month with all of the issues resolved. edit: I do have one ship that uses 16g cartridges, a Gearing class destroyer. I'll try to bring that next time, too.
WITHOUT a siphon tube Mounted upside-down I have battled about 50 sorties / year for 8 years with a class 6 BB Using about 10 different supply tanks / year never an issue. If you are traveling a long way AND are concerned, bring your own 20lb.er
Sounds like I'm swapping out tanks when I head down to the welding supply store. I'd rather get 75% of a tank than 50% of a tank. Since I'm putting in the effort anyway, would anybody care to share photos and details of their fill stations? I'm thinking about capacity, ease of use, ease of transport, and ease of setup.
As an FYI SCUBA tanks can have 3000 psi of air, they are bigger than our 20lb CO2 and have no liquid but I can tell they have been filled because of the weight. Can you imagine if you were swimming down and got liquid air? CO2 has a HIGH affinity for itself and compress into a liquid HIGH affinity for itself - - - like some people!
