okay trying very hard to engineer this thread towards us weirdo's that actually want to use subs in r/c combat. focused mainly towards 1/144 please don't bother with posts saying how it's impractical or not a good idea etc etc etc . seen enough of it .. doesn't belong in this thread okay first off .. I've got some questions and if I've thought of em lord knows a bunch of others have too! - okay I've seen in the rules that guns can't be elevated back the horizon .. I think this is a great idea and I can very much see why it's done. what about subs with underwater tubes? having the ability to dive down and nose up at an enemy ship and fire would be nice .... is this a big no no? - whats the worth while underwater range of a 1/4 torp? either a chunk of rod or a ball bearing I really don't want to have to bump a ship to fire. - treaty events... is it possible to use just a torp firing sub in both? fast and big gun? it's relatively difficult to find "specific" sub rules personally I am thinking about an armed convoy subs... specifically the USS Argonaut .. I know everyone tries to be as periodic as possible... but is it concievable to have the transport version of the sub that still has mine capability? - would it be a no no for a convoy sub to scoot out a little from the supply line and lay some mines just outside the supply line to try and block some lines that attacking ships can take? - I assume that armed convoy ships can only fire on ships that are attacking them? and have to stay in the supply course as much as possible? - given the generally used rules for balsa window size.. X inchs above the water line.. on a 1/144 sub would this include the deck and part of the coning tower ? given that a pin prick would definately hurt a sub I'm not trying to make then a supremely easy target .. but I would like to keep it as "fair" as possible for both sides. I really want to do a sub and a PT boat. I'm a sucker for the underdog and a challenge!.. and while I love RC combat .. the normal boat combat doesn't intrest me personally .. so I'll stick with subs, torp boats and convoy ships so lets see how this thread does with real questions and answers about using subs (and small torp boats) and not the building of them itself
The WWCC has a long and glorious history of armed combat submarines successfully used in battle. Although I haven't built a submarine (yet) I will answer based on what I have seen. Pointing armed cannons and occasionally firing at a slight upward angle due to diving and surfacing is an unavoidable part of operating a submarine. I would compare it to shots that skip off the water: it happens. Just like when a ship rocks, takes on a list, or sinks, there's not much you can do to avoid it. However, if you find room inside your sub for an automatic leveling circuit (a common feature in RC subs nowadays) you can cut down the severity of elevation. Nobody has actually tested this, however I can offer an answer based on my own experience. I would say that a 1/4" ball bearing can only penetrate balsa at 6" or less (and thats probably on the long side). According to one sub skipper, switching to a short solid rod or bullet can increase the effective range a bit, but often has the undesired side effect of plugging up the hole you just made. WWCC submarines have a firing button in the nose, and must bump into the target to fire. This is because when submarines were first made, radio equipment was not sufficiently miniaturized to allow a firing servo in addition to the throttle, dive planes, rudder, receiver, battery, and cannon. You will not be allowed to run in officially sanctioned IRCWCC or MWCI events because torpedoes are not legal weapons. For local events, it depends on how members feel. I seem to recall a Big Gun destroyer participating in a treaty event, so they may be willing to let you play, but you'd better ask them first. Well, that depends upon the historical ship. If it kept it's minelaying equipment after the conversion to a transport, then yes it could. If not, then no. Argonaut kept it's torpedoes when converted, so it could run as an armed transport. However, my sources do not indicate whether or not it kept the minelaying equipment, so I could not say for certain. Personally, I think mines suck and are a pain in the butt, and would recommend you avoid using them.
first off.. THANK YOU that's the first time I've gotten straight forward real answers (ofcourse I only just found this pirticular forum a couple days ago ) as for other ships.. I actually do have plans for a another wierdo ship an ISE battle Carrier though I may have to look at at a torp destroyer instead of a PT. it may sound a little backwards but I figure if I can engineer everything to fit and work in a sub (tactically successful in battle is a different matter) .. then moving to larger reloading and moving cannon systems it's really not that I don't like the battleships and cruisers... I just see a Niche that needs some help and as I said above I love a challenge
that;s the major problem.. there isn't a local club ... at this point I think it's on my shoulders to find like minded people locally and start one the washington cascade group is "close" but it's a decent drive and ferry to get there which makes regular trips a pretty large problem... that being said it's a great thing to plan a trip there for a major event and battle for a couple days. I would like to eventually set a schedule that will allow both a club on Van Island and the washington Cascade a chance to interact. but they are fast gun and my main intrest at the moment is big gun.
I have a Hyuga hull hanging on the wall. It's a little ugly, but then I was testing a new way to scratchbuild hulls when I made it. I think one would look cool. A PT boat in 1/144 is like 6" long. Arming one would be an astounding feat of technology and engineering. A torp destroyer would be better (but still hard). Subs are cool, I have an I-400 hull to play with, and I built a wood frame of USS Argonaut which Brian K of MWCI will be deploying at some point. It's reasonably sized, although arming it will still be tough (ask Bob Pottle how hard arming subs is, keeping in mind that he is a master builder). But regardless of what you decide to build, I'll certainly cheer for you and your labors My best advice is to pick a ship/sub and start building it!
as much as doing a Gato or argonaut with a PT would be fun.. I think I'm gonna go Axis, I-400, Ise class battle carrier.. and some form of torp/mine laying Destroyer.. heres another sub question... does the I400 fall into a convoy class? beyond just picking a ship... I have to pick which rules/type I'm going to fight under... I think first off I'll do the sub and the carrier if anything unarmed (ready to be armed ofcourse) just to get out there and give others that feel the need something to shoot at
That's where a couple of "conventional" ships could be a big help. Let people see you out frequently sailing around, even if there's no battle. Set a schedule & keep to it, no matter what. All who are interested may not necessarily share your interest in challenging builds, but you'll need all types to get enough to have good battles. JM
You could use the I400 for a convoy ship. Depending on the rules you're battling under, it may or may not be armed. I battle under MWCI (and Battlestations once we get rolling). The MWC and IRCWCC from whence it sprang (sprung?) do not allow armed convoy ships. Some big gun clubs allow them to be armed. So if you're in the position to be starting a club where none exists, I'd suggest looking at the available rules and picking the ones you want to use From my perspective, as long as you're getting boats on the water and battling, it's all good. There will be a set of plans for the I400 getting posted on the forums at some point, once they're ready. Mark is working them up, and given his craftsmanship on the ginormous 1/96 Yamato, they'll be good. The only good plans for the Ise class BBCV that I know of are from Miyukikai. There might be others, but those are the only ones I know of. They're in 1/200 scale, but that's easy to fix at a decent print shop. What John says about having some surface runners to "show the flag" is entirely correct. Nothing like a boat on the water to attract like-minded people, or even some people who hadn't realized that they were like-minded yet.
finally got in touch with the local Marine modeling club today. got some very good news 1 the area they have is damn near perfect for battling... 50+ feet out and across and ranges from 1-4ft deep, CLEAR and they have a club rescue row boat 2. I brought up the battling thing with several people within the club including the "2nd" in command and he thought it was a great idea. though he said he hasn't seen any intrest in the area doesn't mean that some can't be found. He said the club was working on getting a few competition type things on the go (tug obstical courses... 1meter sailboat racing). infact we were talking about how the local hotel that lets them use the space is happy to have them there it's part of their advertising and would love to see more events, he's going to bring it up with the hotels owner about the battling too. the Club has anytime use of the area and the Hotel is about to spend 30 grand making them a new dock to run/launch from. I think I'm gonna go "treaty" atleast this way anything that forms here, can interact with the washington group .. and it would be a decent enough compromise for me between fast and big gun
another "battle carrier" option is based on a Mogami ... the Tone I beleive? actually the mogami might be a really interesting multi role ship to build. being that the mogami class had 3 different remodels... light cruiser, heavy cruiser and escort type armed mini carrier if I can get my hands on a Mogami hull .. 3 diff decks.. 3 diff weapon systems.. whole lot of work, but could be a helluvalot of fun definately be a ship that could play by fast/big gun and treaty rules though it would be more of a novelty in carrier config .. though be a relatively dangerous convoy/carrier with 3 turrets on it's nose ( I don't think it carried enough planes to have a represenative cannon by common rules) okay this thread has kinda gone off it's initial track... though excelent information in one spot for us weirdo's
These are the current MWCI sub rules: K. Submarines 1. All rules pertaining to the construction, operation, and scoring of surface ships within the rules apply to submarines unless specified. 2. A submergible submarine may have a pump if the pump can only be used to pump water into and out of an enclosed ballast tank. In no way may the pump be used for damage control. 3. Submarines are not considered sunk by decks awash or resting on the bottom, but by their failure to surface when requested by a CD. 4. All penetrable area on a submergible submarine that participates in fleet battle is considered "below the waterline" area for scoring. 5. On submarines, impenetrable material may be used as hull skin, but be at least 1" below the waterline, more than 45 degrees below the turn of the bilge, or more than 45 degrees above the turn of the hull. 6. A submarine must have at least 1/2" of penetrable area amidships. 7. A submarine does not need at least 1/2" at its lowest point. I would regard them as a work in progress. As no one has actualy built a combat sub. They would probibly need to be adjusted to reflect actual experence. BB guns can fire under water, but tend to be eratic, and limited range, maybe 12". I suspect that one of the problems a sub would have, is getting run over by battleships. If the sub surfaces, it would get holed by stray bbs. Submerging far enough to avoid battleship fire, means not being able to attack. Target area for subs to shoot at is only 1" tall below the water line. Everything is faster than a sub, this could make getting a target hard. Something would be needed to show sub location in cloudy water. Sticking your bow into a battlehips and blasting away seams a bad idea, and a good way to get run over. Perhaps mounting gun or torp in the stern might be better. Running deck awash for most of the time might be best. It removes doubt on depth, making vertical targeting better, and is easer to keep track of. (once you lose track of a sub, you have a problem) Conning tower is going to take some hits, as are the decks and anything showing when running decks awash. They would need not to leak when this happened. Shooting a deck gun when awash should be easer than submerged. When something nasty shows up that can hit an awash sub, you dive. Diving too deap is bad. It can dammage the hull, and get bottom gunk into props. 6" down should be all that is required.
I just finally got access into the yahoo group so I had a chance to read the rules this morning. as I read the treaty rules (atleast for washington) and have seen people mention. you can't split a solid 1 unit for a pair of 1/2's? (also considering I can't have an evact pump ) does this count with the class 1 ships?... given the amount of space a decently built single shot gun with a magazine takes .. I was thinking possibly 3 spurt guns or 2 really simple spurts and a simple single shot .. 2 for torps and 1 for a deck gun ... maybe a 1 unit rear deck gun.. and a pair of 1/4 unit spurts in the nose just below to deck. I'm not planning on running into the heat of battle with it... but rather being a convoy escort or vulture. keep a raiding ship busy (or atleast annoyed) till help can arrive... or given the oppertunity 'pop up' on the back side of an enemy ship engaged and give em a couple blasts .. then RUN LIKE HELL
as for keeping an eye on it, I'm gonna put a 6-8 inch flexible thin tube on it (also for antennae) which will help me know where it is and how deep it is though it might let the enemy know where I am .. it'll also let my team know where I am for planning, which should be a fair trade off all considered.
The subs I have seen have at least 12 inches of antenna sticking up, to make it easier to see. My experience is that the real power of a submarine is not in stealth. The power is in fear of an unpredictable weapon that has a massive punch with torpedoes. Although the sub is difficult to see, everyone is asking where it is and shouting out it's location. Many skippers panic (or at least get a bit jumpy) when the sub is near them because they know that the sub can knock a large hole below the waterline. There are photos of subs in action on the WWCC photo gallery that you might enjoy. I-400 running after the 2005 campaign game. http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album27/I_400 Giussano is hit once by I-400, and hides near the Axis harbor. I-400 comes back and finishes her off, then gets chased back home by Adm Scheer. Damage to Giussano is also shown. http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7871 http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7909 http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7914 http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7961 Damage that sank I-401 http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album60/Battle_243
Sorry, I am new to the whole quote thing. My wife is building an ISE now, were you able to find plans of any sort or are you using photos of models to fabricate the superstructure? If you found plans, where?Thanks, J
I think depends on which year of Ise .. I seem to remeber that atleast during the half carrier refit that the SS was changed.. it might have been from an early refit or damage repair there are a few fairly decent (but small which wouldn't really be that hard to change) line drawings online I found through a google image search for Ise I found side and top line drawings for both the battle ship and battle carrier refits, but the side image is to the waterline only. there are also several real photos of it online but the ones I have found are poor quality (as expected) and usually a really crappy angle for getting details
and Gascan.. thank you! those are excelent pictures, maybe I can be privilaged enough to provide a cameraman an action shot of a sub firing on a ship from a tactical stand point, your very much right that even just being around an enemy and "distracting" him or his teammates hollering your location constantly will help and more then likely let them cruise into the gun fire of your teammates although I am pretty sure that my first experiences with experienced skippers will result in me retrieving the sub from the bottom while I learn the best locations on ships to 'pop up' it would be a nice thought to be able to take an under water 'run' ( I realize subs are really slow) pop up and fire and get back under (and continue under said target) but that will take a fair bit of room, and would pretty much put me directly in their fire which would be a very bad thing
I bought my plans from Miyukikai and they have plan, profile, and perspective views of the Ise superstructure. You can specifically order the set that is Ise as BBCV and not have to do any guessing... For $24 it's money well spent, and you don't have to worry about maybes and fuzzy shots (I have the same google search pics on the hard drive already For submarines, the key would seem to be making them dive and surface quickly, so you can make the attack and then clear datum.
