Name's James: I've got a Cleaveland class heavy cruiser that is 70% finished (if you only count the guns as 20%) and am really excited to be a captain. I've been out to Cali to see the WWCC guys and they're pretty cool, I can't wait to bring my own boat to a battle. James
Hi, James, welcome aboard! I'm a WWCC regular, so you probably met me when you visited. Good luck on your build. Any chance you'll post pictures?
hah! I had to check your profile, but Carl, you sold me my ship. (or your brother, I'm actually not sure I could say which is which) Can you see the pictures that I've got under my fleet? If not, i'll re-post them here. There's not much to look at right now, I stripped off all the old balsa wood on her, and put new on, I just mounted up the motors the other night. I only work on it once a week, for a couple of hours, so it's really slow. My dope should arrive soon, and then I'll silkspan and put her in the water.
Hi James, You stated you had bought a Cleveland class cruiser and are building it for Big Guns combat? I was just wondering what kind of guns you have put on her as the orignal ships carried six inch guns which in WWCC rules equate to bb guns only. And since the Cleveland class had no torpedos, she wouldn't be able to install torpedo guns. Or...are you building for fast guns only. Like I said, I am just curious how you are fitting her out. thanks, Steve
This is something that I'm trying to figure out. I've not started on the guns yet (and probably won't until mid-january). In big-gun I can have all 12 of the 6 inchers (.177) on rotating turrets, (if I can figure out how to do it) in fast-gun I can only have 4 of them armed (one back, one right, one left and one forward) 3 of them armed, the rules say one quadrant has to be left exposed. The more I think about it, I'm going to go fast-gun on the Cleveland, and then make a Battleship in biggun, butI love the Utah, and she'd be much more competitive in fastgun. so I'm still thinking about it. James
Hi again James, as I pointed out on the Big Gun website, you need to decide which format to battle. In fast guns, many skippers place two guns in the stern and have one pump with water channeling. In this manner you have your three battle units. Also with cruisers, the hit and run tactic is used more frequently. Run in, pop pop pop and move on. That's what I did anyway. Run & Gun! And remember, you only have so much room inside the boat to place the equipment, especially if you are thinking of adding rotating bb guns, CO2 bottle, accumulator tank, watertight boxes, battery, etc. It all comes donw to what you want to battle really. Remember what I said about skinning the ship and the difference in hull thickness. Rules are different, so take time to read them. Anyway, if you haven't done so already, join the Model Warship Combat Inc. forum and ask a lot of questions on this site. I suggest that you take pictures of your ship build and post it and your progress in the building section here so that others can comment and give you thier thoughts on how you are doing. Makes it less frustrating as you go along, especially if you don't have hands on help nearby. Just my two cents and hope you have fun with the hobby!! Steve
Actually for small gun in a cruiser, you can only have guns pointed in the bow and stern quadrants for safety reasons. Cleveland is a 3 unit ship, one of which will need to go to your pump, so twin sterns is what most cruiser captains run.
Seriously? Man I need to re-read those rules! I totally missed that! So, I think that settles it, I'm going biggun. Not having a rotating turret is a real bummer. Now I totally understand what crackerzach was saying about cheap though. That all makes for a much less complex boat. James
So let me get this straight...if I did biggun, could I arm all of the main guns? Cause if I can, and the turrets can rotate, i'm going biggun.
I'm not sure of the ruleset of your nearest biggun club. Here in Oz, if the gun was over 6" on the actual ship, you can arm it. We only sail Big Gun here.
Crackerzach: yes, if you did Big Gun, you are allowed to arm all the main guns, and all secondary and tertiary guns over 3" (75mm), and make them rotate. That does not mean, however, that doing so is recommended or, in many cases, even physically possible. Take the Cleveland for example. You *are* allowed to arm all twelve 6" guns (in four triple turrets) AND all twelve 5" guns (in six twin turrets), and make them all rotate through their full range of motion. If you did so, however, the ship would sink under its own weight and you wouldn't have room for CO2 bottle, batteries, or motors. Most skippers choose to arm only the primaries, and even then they don't always arm all of them. There are several reasons for this. 1) control. In order to take advantage of having huge piles of guns, you have to be able to control them all. There's no point in having primaries, secondaries, tertiaries, and torpedoes if your brain cannot keep track of them, or get them all pointed in the right direction at the right time. A few skippers are experimenting with fire control computers to help with this, but the complexity and cost goes up dramatically. 2) complexity/cost. More guns means two things. More money, and more chances of breakdown. First, more guns costs more money, and not everyone can afford that. Second, your entire ship can be rendered useless if a single air leak empties your CO2 bottle, and more guns means more chances of failure. It also requires more maintenance, and additional effort during construction to make it all work in the first place. 3) aiming. Probably one of the less-appreciated aspects of Big Gun is the challenges of aiming. Rotating turrets, surprisingly enough, actually decrease your average accuracy. Adding depression further decreases your accuracy. When you're aiming a fixed gun, you're basically trying to line up your target with a 4- to 6-foot-long object (your ship) in order to hit. This is fairly easy to see at all ranges, and the controls are simple to use. When you add rotation, you're no longer using your ship to aim. You have to see your own guns (never more than six inches long), and manipulate both your ship and your guns in order to target. Not only is spotting harder, the controls are more complex, requiring two hands to operate. Adding in depression exponentially increases the complexity on both spotting and control, to the point where you almost need three hands and binoculars to aim. of course, rotation and depression have their own benefits, namely wider engagement options and better odds of an underwater hit. Arming a ship is a decision each skipper needs to make. You can't have everything, so it's a trade-off: you gain one thing in exchange for another. It's up to the individual to find the combination that best suits him or her. A fine example of this decision-making process is the French battleship Normandie. Historically, this small, slow dreadnought had three quad 7/32" guns, 24 .177" secondaries, and six torpedoes. The guy who built it, however, chose to arm only two of the quads, none of the secondaries, and none of the torpedoes. Furthermore, the rear gun was non-rotating, while the front had both 270-degree rotation and about 20 degree depression. The choice to arm only two of the quads was easy, since the 3rd main turret was amidships, interfering with the CO2 bottle placement. He passed on torpedoes and secondaries because he cannot keep track of that many weapon systems. Lastly, his fixed stern gun was made with MJV-2 valves, greatly simplifying construction and halving the cost. With only two guns, the ship was incredibly reliable, and never suffered a mechanical breakdown. In battle, the ship was maneuverable enough that he could out-turn almost every ship on the pond. If someone tried to attack him, he'd show them his rear, and fart in their general direction. Otherwise, he'd chase targets around close to shore with his bow gun, where he could stand nearby and shoot more accurately. The skipper recognized his (and his ship's) limitations, and didn't over-reach himself. Another skipper built a Normandie, and he armed all three quads with rotating turrets, in addition to the torpedoes. I haven't heard how his ship has done since his local club hasn't been very active, but he had a much harder time building his ship than the guy near me did.
James, Carl makes some good points and I think what you should be looking at it what is practical for the newbie. How often are you planning to drive to San Jose, CA to fight with us in WWCC? Probably not many times from Utah I would think. That is why I mentioned the Reno fast gun guys who are much closer. And you said there were guys in Colorado you could contact too. And don't get wrapped up in "rotating turrets" when you can have LOTS of fun with fast guns. I love the fast paced battles involved in that format and the guns are easy to maintain and build. They have a nationals event that you will meet some of the best skippers from all over the country. Model Warship Combat Inc., also has it's own insurance that makes it easy to be a member. take a look at that organization and see what it offers. Slow down and make the right choices so you don't get frustrated. You have a few cold build months now to ask questions and make contacts. Just some suggestions, Steve in sunny California
Carl: Very thoughtful and well written post, thanks. Steve, you are very correct. I was shooting my mouth off... I've spent a long time daydreaming about this hobby, even before I knew it was a hobby. I've experienced how hard it is to get those thoughts into a ship, and I haven't even tackled co2 and guns yet. I think the way to start is to mount a single gun/turret, then work on getting it rotating. Then tackle another ship. I went to Lowes last night and looked for ScotchKote, they had liquid tape, but no SK. I've checked Home Depot and they don't have it. Google has a lot of places online, but usually in the 20-30 dollar range. That seems high, even including shipping. Thoughts?
That price range sounds about right, one can lasts a while, its good stuff. I havent seen it in Lowes recently either, so probably online or a speciality electronics shop would be where to get it. Liquid electrical tape peels off easily so water can get under it which defeats the whole point of using it.
