**Moved from the Battlestations! rules thread. Peeps who know how to answer this please assist; I would, but I don't know Treaty rules that well Guys, How diffince are the IRC and kethe Treaty Rules?? Nikki
The biggest thing I see is speed, then comes the amount the ship is allowed to pump. After that comes the abilty to divid units to allow a different set up of the gun units. Buddy
Basic construction rules are nearly identical between the two rule sets. I believe Treaty allows hard casements all around vs IRCWCC dictating casements within a 1/2" of the gunwale must be penetrable. Also, Treaty would like the builder to place rudders and props in scale locations, versus moving said parts to optimize turning in IRCWCC and MWC.
I have not done IRC or MWC yet (plan to do some IRC next year), but here is my understanding from a treaty perspective: Building wise: Speed charts are different and different gun unit/placement rules plus pumps are measured by rate of flow, not outlet size like Buddy said. Casements, rudders, & props as Mike said. Shallower down angle on the guns. Scale waterline. Guns don't hit as hard (max penetration of foam or chronometer). Pondside: Rate of fire restrictions (2 shots per gun per second). There is not as much carnage in Treaty, so sinks are rarer (unless its Mikey's Hood) From what I have overheard visitors saying at our battles, the competition is a bit more laid back. I'm sure I'm missing something, but it is past my bedtime. Generally: All are full of a great bunch of folks helping each other out when not smack-talking. Mikey (froggyfrenchman), Phil (the frog), and Mark (RCENR) (and Eric N, and Bat) from the local Treaty group have gone out of their way to help out RC noobs like me and Matt. Mike Mangus (RichelieuBB) from the MWC down in Mississippi gave me a lot of help during the conference this year. Lee and Buddy from the Ohio IRC club have too. (Buddy, I have almost forgiven you for trying to re-enact the Battle of Sargasso Straight with your SoDak v. my Kirishima) Mikey also mentioned Carl Ming (The Geek) in NY as someone else who would bend over backwards to help out a newcomer Steven M. from the WWCC (Strike Models) was also very helpful at this year's conference.
Bumping this old thread back up. We have heard from a couple Fast-gun folks that are showing an interest in attending a Treaty battle in the future. Keep in mind that all the first Treaty boats started out as Fast-gun boats. And the folks that started Treaty knew that the key to getting the new format off the ground was to keep the changes to the boats at a minimum. So that folks that were already battling to Fast-gun rules could easily make the changes in order to conform to Treaty rules as well. The main changes that were made in order to create the new format were not to the boats. They were changes to the mentality of the captains. We were not trying to make the combat better, so much as we were trying to make it different. Some of the main changes to the boats have been addressed in the posts above. To name a few... Speed chart. Shafts, and rudders placement. Allowing Hypothetical ships. These three were put in place to allow a wider variety of ships to fill roles in the game. Less down-angle on side-mounts. To open the range and avoid contact between ships. Then there are some limits that were put in place on some of the things in order to keep the variance in capacities down in order to lessen the chances of the few maintaining a dominance over the many. Muzzle-velocity, rate-of-fire, and pumping capacity. Scale waterlines is in place so that folks can't weigh their ships down, or cut down the hull in order to show less target area. Changing and/or charging all batteries between sorties is allowed. Allowing more than one 75 round cannon on ships allows captains to have less cannons, with more ammo per cannon in order to cut the costs of building the boats. Mikey
very informative can you elaborate on shaft& rudder placement, as well as scale waterline, and how those are determined and enforced? In particular scale waterline seems difficult on a larger scale than a small group. Ships like the QE series had ever shifting waterlines through the many rebuilds and refits, and in ww2 especially ships carried an ever increasing array of AA equipment and supplies that tended to leave them sitting lower in the water. These seem unlikely to be well reflected in plans (ignoring for a second questions about the legitimacy of many available plansets). I like this idea a lot. Is there also a provision to allow a captain to split guns into <50rd guns if they happened to want MORE guns on board?
Now that we have covered a lot of the differences to the ships between the two formats, we can re-address some of the differences to the battling rules. In Treaty.. We don't count damage points after the battles. Just sink points, penalty points, and convoy points. So we can spend less time figuring out the points, and start the process of getting the boats back on the water sooner. We do not allow prop-washing. Convoy missions are always welcome. So we have lots of folks building, and running convoy ships.. Our out-of-control rule last the same amount of time (either 5, or 2 minutes). But the ship that is out of control is only a target for the first one minute. And they then just have to survive the remaining time (either 4, or 1 minutes). Our moss rule only lasts 15 seconds. These rules are in place to limit the amount of damage to ships that are not in control. And in general. We do not promote the pounding on and sinking of the newer folks. Unless they talk a lot of smack. In which case we will also be pounding on them without mercy, and they will probably also experience occasional friendly-fire incidents. The general idea in Treaty, is that if everyone has fun at this event, then they will have incentive to make plans to come back to another event down the road. Mikey
The short answer on the shafts, and rudders is that we don't want to see a Yamato with twin rudders that are side-by-side, in order to make it turn better. In other words.. Someone going to extremes. As to the scale waterline question. We allow ships that were refitted to carry the waterline that is based on their current configuration. So if you modeled your ship on the as-built configuration, then the waterline needs to be in that location. If your ship is as refitted and the waterline changed, then the waterline needs to fit that config. Again. The idea is to keep folks from going to extremes and build a ship in the as-built configuration, but have the waterline of the modernized and deeper configuration, in order to show less target area. As to the ship plans. That is probably not a problem area. It is common knowledge that not all ships plans are equal. Some are probably not even going to be close. The rule was not put in place to protect the format from the captain that built a ship to a set of plans that they were not aware are not scale. Mikey
again, very informative. thank you If I can detour a bit, I recall that casemates are permitted to be solid is Treaty. Is that still correct? Have many casemated ships been built/battled yet and how have they been received? and last... lately locally we have been discussing GPM limits on pumps rather than restrictors. Have you found that this has been quick and easy to test, and fairly straightforward for people to dial in?
Yes, casemates can be solid in Treaty. Since we don't count holes, there's not much reason to patch holes if they are above the waterline and don't contribute to a sink. My Potemkin has casemates in the front and we have a couple other PDNs also with casemates. So far no issues and no one has thought they are an unfair advantage. Checking the pump rate is pretty easy, just one large measuring cup and a couple of minutes pond side. We don't test every ship every time, letting the captains do most of the testing on their own. Adjustment is easy if you have an ESC on the pump and a radio with end point adjustment.
Hi guys I am hoping to attend your Labor Day battle I know most of you since I have battled with you for several years I have set up my ship so it can conform to Washington Treaty and IRCWCC. I agree with Mickey most of the difference is a matter of adjustments, and mental. (This is a lot easier since I started using ECSs) with luck I will bring a friend / battler Kas
Tugboat, Thanks for moving this. One rule that I think we should look into mike is the prop-washing I use it not ad s weapon. But a way to get attention. Nikki
Our prop wash hits ships all the time just from maneuvering. No effect Actually when we prop-wash people, as a weapon, it is when the ship is about to sink and needs help.
