Good evening folks: This is a great forum - thanks for the ideas and participation. I've been trying to narrow down on a ruleset that makes sense to me, and to the location where I live (Alaska). Please dont mind the reservation (or liking) I have for one or the other. I'm certain these topics are all very important to the three major diversions of this hobby, and I have no particular strong sentiments for or against any of these three branches of the hobby, other than my personal biases. I have a few questions and thoughts, and like to present them in a way that others may see where I come from and that I've tried to do all the research I can on this before asking too many silly (and I'm sure repetative) questions: So I understand (meaning trying to make sense off) that: 1. Treaty is more realistic in appearance with scale props and rudders and smaller guns (BB's), somewhat slower speeds, use really thin armor, and use (mostly) fixed guns and Offensive and Defensive Units to dictate guns, pumps etc. 2. Big Guns use mostly oversized rudders and props, oversized guns, alot of armor to represent the toughness of a ship, somewhat the same speeds as Treaty, and pretty much everything can be armed, and also have (often) very well written rules, guidelines and construction tips. 3. Fast Guns seems fast moving boats with thin armor and guns that spray lots of BB's around the pond. What I find strange is that, asside from Foam Testing or dropping tubes on balsa, I cannot find any data on what size bearing penetrates what thickness Balsa (treated with XYZ material - anything from silkspan to paint to tape). How far do these guns shoot at what pressures, and what can they penetrate and how accurate are they, and why do many of the guns depress up to 15 degrees down? A 1 degree deflection is about 15 feet from the deck of the H-39 I'm building, a 2 degree is about 10 feet, and 3 degree about 5 feet. 15 degree is like bumper car range... I'm looking at adopting the best rules that I like and go from there: 1. Scale Props like Treaty (slower speed is ok with me, as is realistic appearance) 2. Scaly Rudders like Treaty (same reason) 3. Various Armor Thickness like Big-Gun (makes plenty of sense) 4. Using small steel BB's only like Fast Gun or Treaty (dont like the oversized look on the larger barrels) 5. Big Gun Firing Rates (makes sense to me - how do you control the firing rate?) 6. Some of the Big Gun Weapon Systems 7. Big Gun Construction Rules (Some VERY well written rules out there - many thanks for the countless hours, discussions, and wording that went into those rules sets - they helped me in many an hour of frustration as I'm trying to learn all I can about this hobby.) 8. Multiple Bearings per shot per barrel, such as 1 Bearing for each ~5 Inch size, so most destroyers fire 1 bearing per shot, cruisers 2, Battleships 3 per shot per barrel, simulating the larger impact and hitting chance and simulate the damage that a 1/4 bearing might do. That could be easily accomplished by using pins to set the depth in the bearing breech to allow 1, 2 or 3 bearings so the same gun can be used for various ships. So the HMS Rodney, using all the above rules and restrictions, would fire a nice 9 Steel BB barrage with each turret for a whooping 27 shot broadside. That should hit something, and devastate anything at close range...that should be similar to Fast Gun, caliber size of Treaty, ship manouverablilty of Treaty, and the awesome firepower of Big Gun. Weight by Broadside is what dictated and won battles in the Age of Sail, and sure did a number on various British Vessels in WW1 and WW2. Would something like that work? Thanks, Thomas
Scale props work ok for big gun speeds,you just spin them fast enough to get up to scale speed. Scale rudders will give you the turning circle of, well, a battleship. I'd go for the larger rudders. You could always use the 3/16 size steel shot across the board and try to tweak for multiple rounds per barrel per shot, but more than two will tend to jam. Why 3/16? It's not firearms ammo and is a common size for steel ball polishing media, so it's very cheap. Any size shot used in big-gun will penetrate any thickness of balsa we use at combat ranges, at well below legal max velocity, that's why there are no figures. There was no need. We don't use tape here, just silkspan and dope for patching. Even multiple layers of silkspan and dope aren't enought to stop a shot. We don't use penetration testing at all here in Australia, our max muzzle velocity is a legal requirement and we check it using a chronograph. The legal pressure is maxed at 140psi, although i believe that may have changed to 150psi to reflect the output pressure of most available regulators. Muzzle velocity is set by lowering the pressure using an inline regulator till the gun fires consistently at a legal velocity. Firing rate? Most guys just count, but some of us use gun timers. If ou start firing too rapidly, you'll soon be told anyway. The downwards deflection? That's because we fight at very short ranges, almost touching sometimes. Long range shots are a lottery at best and will not penetrate below the water line. Fun to do though.
Why do I say BB guns for ammo size? Because it's easy to get and cheap as dirt. Well, you COULD shoot clumps of dirt, but the cannons would probably cost a lot, and then dirt quality enters the equation
There is actually little difference between Treaty and fast gun ships. Indeed, the Treaty founders intended for fast gun ships to be legal for Treaty battles with easy changes to speeds and pump capacities. IMO Treaty melds traits from Big Gun and Fast Gun formats into a relatively scale playable format ... basically the goals listed in the start of this thread. Although the Rodney example above would be impressive indeed, it wouldn't be so impressive for the ship on the receiving end of all those rounds. And therein is the key for any format: make it playable and enjoyable for everyone.
Yeah, a massive broadside means frequent resheeting which is my LEAST favorite part of the hobby, hands down. I think Treaty is a fine choice.
Oops, sorry guys, I was thinking of the situation over here, where bb pellets are considered firearms ammo and fall under our somewhat draconian firearms laws, requiring the purchaser and whoever is in posession of them to hold a gun licence. Yes, go for the caliber that is most readily available and cost effective in your locality. As to the Rodney example, yes, it would certainly shred anything it catches, but it would have to catch something first. If it did get the opportunity to unleash such a salvo, it is almost certain that it would be in self-defense, not attack. I know, I own one, and the most pointless thing you can do in a Rodney is a stern chase.
Thanks for the various reponses: taking them all very carefully under consideration. Much obliged I had not thought of jambs...good call. I too started a HMS Nelson/Rodney - I'm at a point where I need to fiberglass the bottom. Have the main super finished as well. Just need to add some more details and masts, and all the internals and guns. But I put that to the side until I figure out what I want to do. In the meantime, I'm building a H-39 just for the fun of it, now that I have more confidence in by building skills. I bought the plans for the various guns ages ago, and still tinkering with what I want to do with them. heck, even have all the steel barrels (BB size) and that low melting metal, tube bender and various other goodies, including a couple of 550's, props, and stuffing tubes etc. My bigest headache is the lathing of the parts and pieces of the guns, but I think I have a good work-around for that figured out, and built a gun in 3D Cad that should work without having anything more sophisticated than a drillpress with a laser and a good jig. I do have a question about the large bend radius I see on the steel barrels...is that necessary, or is that the smallest bend diameter that still allows the amo to travel without jambing? I wonder if the curvature of the barrel adds a spin to the bearings...probably. Thanks again. I'll be asking plenty of more questions here or there. Cheers, Thomas PS: I saw that they have R/C Tanks that fire BB's...I wonder how their mechanisms work. Be interesting to take one appart...at a scale of 1/16 they are quite large.
The gentler the curve, the less wear on the barrels. A sharp curve will distort badly after a while, as well as robbing the gun of power. The bend does add backspin to the balls.
I just add a squirt of very light oil to the container with my shot in it, it helps prevent corrosion and lubes the shot at he same time.
At close range under ideal circumstances, any size of legal shot, fired at a reasonable velocity, will penetrate any legal thickness of balsa. I have seen 1/8" armor penetrated by legal guns at more than 35 feet range on the bench. I couldn't go beyond that because we couldn't land any rounds on target at that range, but I have no doubt that they would penetrate. So if any size of shot will penetrate any thickness of balsa, why would you want heavier armor or bigger guns? Remember that I said "ideal circumstances", ie perpendicular impact, no water in the way, not hitting a rib, etc. In the real world, every shot is going to have some kind of angle on it, and if you're aiming for a kill, you have to shoot through several inches of water before penetrating balsa. And once you add in those, the effects of shot size and armor thickness become much more visible. It's a very scale, historically accurate and cool feature of Big Gun, but it does have its downsides. Thicker balsa is harder to skin a boat, and the larger sizes of shot are tougher to build cannons for. I have somewhat circumvented this by experimenting with mail-order laser-cut cannon magazines, but it would be up to you to provide bases (accumulator/valve assemblies) and the specific design of magazine to meet your requirements.
