Russian Krondstat Heavy cruiser

Hi All,
I'm trying to clarify info on the Russian Krondstat heavy cruisers.
Conways all the worlds warships technical data says it was a 38360 tonne ship with 33 knots however the text with the technical data says that it was laid down to a 22000 tonne, 9 X 10in , 33 knot plan in July 1939, wheras the revised approved plan for a 38360 tonne, 9 X 12in gun ship was not approved until april 1940, 8 months after the hull was laid down. I need to find out if it was relaid to the new plan, if that was intended at all. If it was not relaid then she has to be built as a 22000 tonne 9 X 10in gunned ship, if it was going to be bodged together into the new ship without relaying the hull then OK but info is needed to find out that if its the case, in the absence of better info (which is what I'm here for I hope) she has to stay small and undergunned.
Cheers

 

Well the Russians always have felt cheated and mistreated.

 

I looked around a bit to see what I could find about the Kronstadt class battlecruiser (aka Project 69). These were about the only sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronsh...tlecruiser

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...sia/69.htm

Although Wikipedia always has to be taken with a grain of salt, its details conflict somewhat from what the OP reports from Conways. The way I read the Wiki page, the Kronstadt was laid down in November 1939 (not July) to a plan for a 35,000 ton design that had been approved in January. Some revisions were made to improve the armor protection that increased tonnage to about 39,000, and this preliminary plan was approved in July 1939 but the detailed design work not completed until April 1940, by which time construction of the first 2 ships was underway. It is doubtful this revision had any effect on construction since Germany invaded shortly thereafter in June and all further work on the ships was stopped.

The Wiki article lists its sources as:

# McLaughlin, Stephen (2004). "Project 69: The Kronshtadt Class Battlecruisers". in Preston, Anthony. Warship. 2004. London: Conway's Maritime Press. pp. 99–117. ISBN 0-85177-948-4.
# Usov, V. Iu.; Evan Mawdsley (1991). "The Kronshtadt Class Battle Cruisers". Warship International (Toledo, OH: International Naval Research Organization) XXVIII (4): 380–86. ISSN 0043-0374.

If you can find these, it may help clarify the situation. It looks to me, however, that the 22,000-ton design had already been abandoned by the time the ships were laid down, having been upgraded to 35,000 tons and possibly to be modified to 39,000+ had the new armor protection scheme been implemented.

 

Here's another great link with Kronstadt plans:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=34289&start=20u>

 

Very cool!! So how many units is a 35,000 + heavy cruiser? Would it be comparable to Scharnhorst? or is a class 3 because of it's classification as a CA?
J

 

I would think as I have seen the design listed as a battle crusier I would say under IRCWCC rules that it would get 5.5 units as any battlecruiser of 35000tons or greater.

 

The sources I looked at all made references to Kronstadt being a rival to the German Scharnhorst, Japanese Kongo, and French Dunkerque classes. Definitely not your standard heavy cruiser.

 

Thanks guys, sorry I missed the whole 'Battle' part of the cruiser.
J

 

Conways says approved by the Ruskies on 21 Jan 1938 to the preliminary design, (22000 tonnes and 9 X 10in guns), then new requirements were put forward on 29th July 1938 which were approved in April 1940. They just lack data on it which is annoying. We had some issues with the North Carolina but I won through there. She was laid down to a plan calling for 12 X 14in guns in 3 X quad turrets, however the escalation clause was involked when the Japanese didn't sign the Washington Treaty so the US could up gun them to 16in. so here in Australia she can have 12 X 7/32 firing big gun cannon or 9 X 1/4in firing cannon as she sailed with the 16inchers but was laid down to have the 14inchers. I just want to find out more on the Krondstat as if we allow her to be made as the 39000 tonne ship she could set a precedent for other ships that could have been but weren't. So far I can't find anything to change my mind to allow her as a 39000 tonner unless I can find more about the workings of the Russian Defence comittees and ship planning procedures in 1938. Fat chance I reckon!
Cheers

 

I have Conways too and found the Kronstadt entry extremely vague. I'm still convinced my interpretation based on the sources I cited earlier is more likely, and still consistent with what Conways says. It's pretty obvious the Russians wanted a "Scharnhorst-killer," and there was no way they could do it on 22,000 tons. The rationale behind the 22,000 ton version appears to be that the Soviets originally approached Britain for help, and the British insisted the ship be compliant with the London naval treaty limiting heavy cruiser size and armament. The Soviets went along until they saw what Germany was doing with the Bismarck and Scharnhorst, at which point the 22,000 ton design was tossed aside and replaced with the 35,000+ ton version. This revised plan was approved in January 1939, providing plenty of time to develop the detailed design work necessary before the ships were laid down in November. It makes no sense for the Russians to have laid down the 22,000 ton version at this point when it was unwanted in the first place and a new design for the larger battlecruiser was approved and ready to go. The April 1940 design was simply another update to the 35,000 ton ship already under construction.

If you need better evidence to convince your club, your best bet is probably to track down a copy of this book:

Warship 2004

It apparently contains a 20-page article by Anthony Preston describing the Kronstadt.

 

Here is some more information from two sources the first is Soviet warships of the Second World War by Jurg Meister
Displacement 35,240 tones (38,360 tons full load)
Dimensions 813.5 X 103 X 29.75 feet 248m X 31.4m X 9.1 m
Machinery four shafts 150,000 shp 32knots
Armament 9 X 12 (305mm 3 X3) numerous 3.9 inch (100mm) AA, 37mm and 12.7mm AA
Kronshtadt laid down 15/7/39 at Marti Yard (Leningrad) suspended in late 1940 Ship was scrapped
unlaunched 1948-49
Sevastopol laid down at the end of 1939 at Marti North Yard (Nikolaiev) work was arrested early 1940 and suspended later in that year. Following the German occupation of Nikolaiev in August of 1941 the hull was scrapped on the slip.
The second book is Raising the Red Banner by Vladimir Yakubov and Richard Worth
Kronshtadt Factory #194 Marti Shipyard, Leningrad laid down 30 Nov 39
Sevastopol Factory #200 Marti North Shipyard, Nikolayev
Characteristics: 41,539 tons full, 250.5 oa 31.6 x 8.87m, 32 knots, 9 305mm/55, eight 152mm/57, eight 100mm/56, twenty four 37 mm, eight 12.7 mm. 1037 men
The text says: The original specifications for a ship with nine 12 inch/55 guns underwent a thorough recasting to accommodate six German made 38CM guns.
This may be supported by the book by Jurg Meister that discusses the German soviet treaty of 1939. Orders were placed for 16 inch, 15 inch, 11 inch, and 6.1 inch guns in turrets. By August 1941 eight 15 inch guns and one turret were completed but never delivered. The site http://theandrewsshipyard.com/ has a model of the Kronshtadt.
Riverraider

 

Have we ever decided on what the actual numbers are for this ship, not just displacement but length, beam and draft as well?
There are several values available;
length- 250 m (820.21 ft) from a British forum site, 821 ft from bobhenneman.info, 794' 3" from wikipedia and 813 ft from Riverraider's source as shown above
beam- all are a variation of 103 ft +/-a few inches and the draft varies from 29.2 ft, 29.75' and 31 '10".

The plans from El Jefe's link look to say, 35432 t stnd, 41640 loaded, 250 m x 31.6 m x 9.2 m.
I have a Russian fellow at work that should be able to translate them fully. Would the details given on those plans be good enough to use if someone wanted to build one of these and use it in bigger battles?

Inquiring minds want to know.
J

 

one more question, is the beam measured from the widest point of the hull, which is at the bulges below the waterline or at the deck level? It will make a difference in the final printout.
J

 

I beam is usually measured at the widest point of the hull.

 

After talking to Oleg, the dimensions for this class of ship are 35432 ton stnd, 41640ton full load, 250 m x 31.6 m x 9.2 m.

J