What do you guys think of this? If you had a larger scale club with a WW1 and earlier era theme ( using the 1922 Washington Treaty as a cutoff date ) how would you arrange the different countries as opposing teams... since several countries switched "sides" between WW1 and WW2. Heres what I'm thinking.... Allies: British Empire, USA, France, China, Russia and Greece with some smaller countries TBD. High Seas Fleet (Axis): Germany, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire (Turkey), Italy, Japan and Spain, again with smaller countries TBD. Its not quite correct for WW1, with Italy and Japan switching sides, however, it just seems odd to see Tsushima era ships of Japan and Russia being on the same side. It would also be odd to see Spanish and Great White Fleet era US ships on the same side. The smaller countries that are to be determined... I'm thinking about some of the South American navies with Dreadnoughts and the smaller European navies like Sweden and Norway, etc. I'd say let the first person to actually build a ship from those navies choose which side they want to fight on. Thoughts?
The Japanese were pure Allied during WWI. They were aligned with the Brits, which is how they got to end up being Allies with two ostensible enemies at the time such as the US and Russia. The Japanese were after the former German Colonial holdings in the Pacific. A big reason for the Washington Treaty was to make sure that when the US and Japan went to war, that the US didn't have to go against Britain at the same time. Italy didn't really switch sides. Italy was a noncombatant until it exited the Triple Alliance, joined the Triple Entente, and immediately declared war on the Austro-Hungarian Empire which it viewed as the aggressor nation. Spain was neutral.
If you ask me, I wouldn't limit myself to purely historical confrontations. The Germans were a pretty late addition to the Navy mix, for a long time the British were planning to battle it out with the French. I'd love to see a confrontation like that, or the US vs Japan, or Russia and France vs Britain and Japan, etc. And of course, the Italians vs the Austro-Hungarians. Heck, I think it'd even be neat to see if Britain's plan to "build a fleet greater than the next two nations combined" worked out. This whole thing is a really big game. Have some fun with it!
That kinda goes with alternative history. Say the Washington Treaty didn't occur? The US could have then been fighting the UK and Japan in the late 20's or early 30's on two oceans instead of just Japan in the Pacific.
I agree about not limiting a club to purely historic confrontations, But starting small with a club, with a limited number of ships, a broad "Side 1" vs. "Side 2" is needed, so I loosely based it on WW1 Combatants. The problem is achieving a somewhat level playing field. In WW1, Britain had the worlds largest fleet, followed by Germany, the US, the French, and the Russians. In pure number of ships, its basically Germany vs. the World. Austria has nice DN's, but only 4. The Turks have one battlecruiser (the SMS Goeben) and a bunch of clunkers. The Italians have similar fleet strength to the Austrians, and were more or less on the fence in WW1 until they saw which side was going to win. The Japanese, although they sided with the British, didn't do much in WW1, and allied with their former enemies, the Russians. Its easy to imagine, even in WW1, that the US and Japan were already considering each other potential enemies. And minor fleets, like the Central American Navies, wouldn't add much to a US, Britain, France, Russia team, but could provide much needed help to a smaller German and Austrian fleet. In a club covering 1880 to 1922, I think my list above works well as an overall division of combatants. Thats nothing to say that a larger club with more ships couldn't have specialized battles with "what-if" scenarios. Like a predreadnought battle between Britain and France, or a Spanish-American War style battle, or a Russo-Japanese clash.
Great War based teams will be one sided. The best way around it with a small group is probably factions. Greens vs. Purple or some such (red v. blue is sooooo over done), based on the captain not the nationality of the ship's prototype he sails. Have a Green Admiral and A Purple Admiral. Put little strips of cloth in a basket and the rest takes care of it self.
They have the potential to be one-sided... Its safe to say that no club would ever exhaust all possible large ships that could be constructed. Adding a few of the smaller navies to the side of the High Seas Fleet would likely have the effect of balancing the teams slightly. The Grand Fleet doesn't need any help from the Italians or the Japanese to overtake the High Seas Fleet in strength. Add in the obvious WW1 allies of France, Russia and the USA and it becomes even more apparent that they don't need any help. That pretty much leaves that German Fleet alone to face them. With their historic allies the Austrians and the Turks, you gain 4 DN's, 1 BC, some fine predreads, and few old Turkish ships that are turds even in scale (no speed, few guns, iron armor). The Italian ships are actually well matched vs. the Austrian ships (similar speed, guns, etc.) and are very suitible to working together. Leaving smaller countries up in the air allow a suprise or two to shake things up a bit. Building the HMS Erin and Agincourt for the Turks, letting Brazil and Argentina side with the HSF, etc...
Or HMS Velox... Me... I still have a soft spot for French Armored Cruisers. If my club takes off, I might build one to stick it to those limey Brits in a France Vs. Britain scenario [}]
Indeed. I have that book as well. I just have a soft spot (possibly in my head) for the US Flushdeckers. The V-99 is just one I have the plans for already. Would much rather do the V-116.
I am for this. If you really do not want destroyers and cruisers (those Armoured Cruisers stink) this is it. Not a lot of AA guns to clutter the vessel. True battleship battleship actions. Alas! Try to get people to turn in their Iowas or Yamatos I think not. I know it would be hard to do this in the WWCC here in Northern California. Love the ship models of this time period.
Armored Cruisers only stink now because they are pretty much the red-headed step children of anything you can build in current clubs. Although legal because some of them were built or in service after 1900, they get the shaft due to the nature of current rule sets. They are too slow to compete with fast battleships, even though they can outrun most WW1 dreadnoughts. They are large enough to build in 1/144 scale, but too small to really arm to their full potential. There is just no way to fit 14 or so medium caliber guns in a 13,000 ton ship in 1/144 scale.
Armoured Cruisers stunk in real life. Case in point the Flight of the Goeben. Explain to me why 4 ACs Defence,Black Prince,Duke of Edinburgh,and Warrior,did not engage the Goeben. I suppose the Admiral was gutless. In his defence he made a point that he was going up against a superior force. Numerically no. What happen at Jutland? KA-BOOM to some of the ACs. Maybe he was right. In real naval combat you face broadside to bring all your guns to bear. Could the ACs cover the distance to get there guns in range. Sighting distance was about 22,000 yards that day. The German 11" gun had the range And better speed. I would rater make a Pre-dred like Lord Nelson before one of these.
I have always thought that would be an interesting fight though. It would not necessarily be hands down for Goeben.
I have only been here on day and already someone tells me watch my back. I was one of the founders of the Western Warship Combat Cub. It does not mean a hill of beans. Only that I have seen it all. Thank you for the heads up. I am going to conquestreno.com the end of the month. Gaming convention. I am putting on that exact naval battle at this convention. I will post the results. I am just explaning the truth about these vessels. The Battle Cruisers became the scouts for the fleet. Unfortunatly with the same results for the British. KA-BOOM!
Cool. Let us know how the battle turns out. Armored Cruisers were like battlecruisers in a sense. They were used as fast second class battleships, to be included in the battle line. While this worked at Tsushima for Togo, it was a disaster at Jutland. I am leaving out the Falklands fight as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were clearly out classed by the I-Boats, and it was a chase not a battle line engagement. But Goeben vs. the British AC's....Van der Vaat's book on the Goeben gives a pretty good run down on the opposing forces. Some of what I have read says that Craddock engaged von Spee as not to be another (Tourbridge?).
I still don't think Armored Cruisers were worthless. It wasn't the ships, its how they were used. Armored cruisers were never originally intended to operate with in the battle line. They were intended for raiding and overseas stations where a battleship was not needed. IMO, battlecruisers are more flawed due to their original purpose, as a armored cruiser killer. There mere existance ended the armored cruiser, and thus their original role.
Cruisers are not only used for raiding, but also scouting for the battle line of battle ships. I played a simulation of Tsushima Strait as the Russians. I sent my scouts out ahead and found the Japs early and was able to get in a much better position to start with. That battle ended in an orgy of destruction on both sides. Not a single battleship or armored cruiser returned home on either side, which is a better turnout than the historical result, in which that was only true for the Ruskies. Historically, I see battle cruisers as the dreadnoughts of cruisers. They can do long cruises for raiding and dealing with enemy raiders (either battle or armored cruisers), or they can scout for the battle line. They can also take on ships of similar combat capability: older battleships, coastal battleships, or other cruisers. Destroyers and torpedo boats didn't have the range for long cruises, and couldn't handle high seas as well as cruisers could while scouting. They could do night attacks, short range patrols, or fight other ships of their same class.
