Hello, my name is Mike DeMarco. I started out in the hobby a few years back in the fast gun world. I've since gotten involved with the "treaty" system, and I think that this is about ideal for what I am looking for in the hobby. I've currently got 3 ships in various states of readiness: 4.0 unit battlecruiser HMS Invincible, 4.0 unit battlecruiser HMS Courageous, and 3.0 unit Heavy Cruiser USS Salt Lake City. I plan on having the Invincible ready for this battling season, and hopefully this summer I will have the Salt Lake City fully modernized (she's an old school freon boat) and ready to go. Courageous will be next on my list to return to service, although she'd probably be easier to prepare then the SLC. Mike D
Its kinda of like a hybrid of fast gun (IRCWCC/MWC) and big gun, but we are more closely related to the fast gun. Small gun is probably a little more appropriate for what we do, as we use only BB caliber weapons AND limit the rate of fire. Our shiplist generally follows those of the IRCWCC and MWC, although there are some variations. Our biggest difference from the "fast gun" guys is that our speeds have been toned down considerably. We're a little closer to scale speeds then the IRCWCC/WMC is. Our speed chart is based off 30 knots = 30 seconds over a 100 ft course. A 29 knot ship would be allowed 31 seconds and a 31 knot ship 29 seconds, etc. Another major difference is restricted pump rates. Fast gun allows you to pump as much water as you can. We have a chart which restricts the flow (I dont remember the rates off the top of my head...I think its .75 GPM for cruisers and destroyers, 1.0 GPM for dreadnoughts, battlecruisers and carriers, and 1.25 GPM for large, fast battleships). The reason for this is that ships will sink with less damage. Nobody wants to spend all the time between sorties patching holes, and everyone wants to see people sink, so the idea is that ships will sink with less damage, and therefore there will be less patching. I think that about covers the major differences, one of the founders would probably be able to explain a little better then me. I may have forgotten some differences as well. One of the goals is to appeal to both the big gun crowds and the fast gun crowds. Most of the fast gunners dislike the big gun speeds, and the big gun guys dislike the fast gun speeds. We're looking for that happy middle. Mike D
Hi Mike, Sounds interesting, is there a website I can go to that has a copy of the rules? or any information in general? -SRF
VERY INTERESTING! Apparently, unless there is another insignifigant detail that bites me in the ass; my NJ will be compatible with treaty as well! Awesome! I could come down & visit you Ohio guys from time to time!
our yahoo site is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TreatyCombat/ I'll sort through my email archive and see if I can find the latest rules update and post it here. Mike D
Here is a brief synopsis of the rule package to date, as take from our yahoo site. Rate-of-fire We have decided on two shots per second. This is probably about average, to slightly below average for the BBS. So although you will be able to see the difference compared to the current battling in the "A" fleet, it will not be much of a difference. Unlimited technology for firing the cannons. Since we are controlling the rate-of-fire, we feel that we do not need to dictate how one fires the cannons. So circuit boards, push butttons, solenoids, and such is allowed. Reduced operating pressure at the regulator. We are going to order two more springs from Williams, one is 100 psi, and the other is either 120, or 125 psi. We will then do some cannon tests, and determine whether or not the cannons will still fire reliably at either of the lesser pressures. We hope to reduce the operating pressure, but will post more on this later, after the tests are complete. Reduced muzzle velocity. Whether or not we are able to reduce the operating pressure, we also going to have a limit on the acceptable muzzle velocity. We are going to do some tests with the foam like the big-gunners use, and get some devices to measure the fps at the muzzles. We are implementing this rule to not only make the combat more safe, but also in hopes of avoiding the damage to the parts of the ships that are currently allowed to be made impenetrable, but are still being damaged. Speed chart. We are going to be using a speed chart similar to the one that the big-gunners use, but that doesn't slow our ships down as much. The speeds will be mid-way between big-gun, and current small-gun speeds. The chart is as follows. Ship's speed in knots Model's speed in seconds/100 ft. 22 knots.......................................................38 seconds 23 knots.......................................................37 seconds 24 knots.......................................................36 seconds 25 knots.......................................................35 seconds 26 knots.......................................................34 seconds 27 knots.......................................................33 seconds 28 knots.......................................................32 seconds 29 knots.......................................................31 seconds 30 knots.......................................................30 seconds 31 knots.......................................................29 seconds 32 knots.......................................................28 seconds 33 knots.......................................................27 seconds 34 knots.......................................................26 seconds 35 knots.......................................................25 seconds 36 knots.......................................................24 seconds 37 knots.......................................................23 seconds 38 knots.......................................................22 seconds Minimum warship speed will be 22 knots, so anything that didn't go at least 22 knots can still go 38 seconds/100 ft. Convoy ships speeds will be 20 knots (40 seconds/ 100 ft), or whatever the actual ships top speed was historically. So if you use either an aircraft carrier, or an ocean liner as a convoy ship, and that ships top speed was 31 knots, then it can go 29 seconds/100ft. We think that this is a fair, and at the same time workable speed chart for what we are trying to do. The minimum warship speed of 22 knots allows some of the inter-war ships to have a slight speed advantage over the early WW1 ships. At the same time, although there were some ships that could exceed 38 knots, we felt that we had to put an upper limit somewhere, and we felt that this would level the playing field in the cruisers, and destroyers. Pump capacities. There will be three pump capacities. Battleships, and fleet aircraft carriers converted from battleship hulls... 1.25 gal/minute. Battlecruisers, and fleet carriers converted from battlecruiser hulls....... 1 gal/minute. All other warships.......................................................................... .75 gal/minute These amounts are for ships that utilize a full unit towards their pump. If a battleship or fleet carrier that was converted from a battleship hull is allotting 1/2 unit for the pump, then the gpm is reduced to the battlecruiser amount. Also, if two or more units are allotted to pumps, then each pump will be reduced to the battlecruiser amounts. If a battlecruiser utilizes either 1/2 unit for the pump, or has more than one pump, then the pump, or each pump will be reduced to the .75 gal/minute amounts. All other warships pumps can pump .75 gal/minute even if they only allocate 1/2 unit for the pump. Maximum depression on sidemounts. The maximum depression on side mounted cannons will be limited to 15 degrees. This will for the most part only change the haymakers, as most sidemounts on most ships are probably closer to 10-15 degrees already. This will open the ranges for the haymakers, and reduce the likelihood of contact between ships during combat. Hypothetical ships Any ship that was authorized for construction, or had an order placed will be allowed. This will allow ships like the Gascoigne, Montana (WW2), Dutch battlecruiser, German O class battlecruiser, and the French Lyon battleship (WW1), to be built. We feel that since all ships are allotted units, rudder area, speed, and such based on technical data, then these should not have any unfair advantage over the ships that were already allowed. Lower pump discharge angles. Pump discharges limited to no more than 5 degrees above horizontal. This is to reduce the chances of some captains, and their radios, being sprayed by a ship's pump stream. All ships can change, and/or charge batteries between sorties. Since we are slowing down the ships, and limiting the amount of water they can pump, we see no reason to not allow all ships to change/charge batteries between sorties. By allowing ships to battle with less batteries on board, we feel that this will free up not only room inside the hull, to make the build, and maintenance easier, but it would also allow more weight to be used elsewhere, like the superstructures, so that they can be more durable, and better looking. We are still working on some of the other rules, but we for the most part plan to keep most of the current BBS rules as far as sportsmanship, construction, and battling. Namba will still be required. Some things we are still looking at are... Probably leaving the current shaft/rudder rule as-is. Possibly allowing aircraft-carriers limited side-mounted cannons. Counting sink points only. (no counting damage). Increasing ram penalties. Limiting drag discs. We do realize that this new style of battling will not be for everyone, and that is a good thing. We are not trying to compete with the current "A" fleet for members. We hope to attract current, and especially past members from both big-gun, and small-gun groups that have fallen out of the combat, for whatever reasons. We are hoping to create a club made up of close friends, that love the ships, and the camaraderie, and get together to re-create surface naval warfare for the fun of it, without getting caught up in the competitive aspects of r/c warship combat. We plan to have awards only for sportsmanship, and best-of-scale, and such. At this stage of the game, we are taking the opinions, advice, and thoughts of anyone showing interest in joining the club. And the three founders are discussing them, and then taking a vote to see what the original rules will be. When the club gets off the ground, it will take not only 2/3s majority of the members to make new rules, or change existing rules, but also 2/3s of the founders. This is in place to ensure that the club doesn't outgrow those who created it, and why. Thanks. Mikey Group. Here are a few more finalized rules. Moss rule. The moss rule will be 15 seconds (instead of 30 seconds). With the use of lower power motors on the drive systems, there will be a possiblilty that getting mossed will have more of an impact on our ship's speed. Beyond the change in duration, the rest of the rule will be the same. You will only be a target for 15 seconds. 5 (or 2) minutes out of control rule. When a captain declares that they are out of control, (drive, or steering system only), they will only be a target, for the first 1 minute (60 seconds). After which they will have to survive the remaining 4 (or 1) minutes. After the first 60 seconds, they can no longer be attacked, and they can no longer fire on others. Prop-washing rule. Prop washing will not be allowed. On 5 (or 2) minute rule. If any captain that is on their 5 (or 2) minutes is asked, if they are on 5 (or 2) minutes, they must inform the person asking that they are on the time, and also inform them as to how much of their time remains. 3 unit cruiser rule. 3 unit cruisers can break down (1) of their units into two half-units. In doing so, they can then use a half unit for a pump, and add the other half-unit to an existing cannon, or create a half-unit cannon. Splitting a full unit cannon rule. Captains can split full unit cannons into half-units, and add the half-units to already existing cannons. Examples. The captain of a South Dakota class battleship (6 units), can take one of their three stern cannons out, and add one half-unit of ammo to each of their sidemounts. Or they could take out one of the three stern cannons, and have two 75 round (1.5 unit) stern cannons. Note. This rule change does not apply to twin side-firing turrets. Twin rotate turret rule. Ships that are allowed to have twin side-firing turrets, may rotate these turrets, as long as they do not violate the two cannons in one side quadrant at one time rule. Example. A ship with two cannons in (B) turret, can rotate them from port, to the bow, and also to starboard, as long as that ship has no other sidemounts in either side quadrant at the same time that the dual turret covers that side. Also, a ship that has two turrets with twin cannons, can have those turrets trade sides, as long as they are never covering the same side at the same time. We will work on the actual wording of these rules in the near future, but this is the basic theory. We are also working on a satisfactory ship-list, and will have it posted by Jan. 1. Beyond that, there are only a few other things that have been discussed, that we are looking into. There will probably be very little else that changes. Please read through these, and feel free to post your thoughts, and or concerns. We are hoping that these changes will make it more fun for all to first choose a ship to build. Then decide how to arm it. And most importantly, how you want to battle it. Mike D
These rules are quite appealing to me as I like the limited speeds of the big gun ships but the kind of ships I really like (Predreadnoughts and Armored Cruisers) are slightly less of a mere target than they would be in the big gun world. Now if I could just find some one down south with similar interests. Pax, A.
All I am finally on the forun. I will be really busy till after next weekend due to the Toledo show. But after that I will try to find more time to participate in the on-line fun. Mikey
I was wondering if not scoring holes has the effect of making sidemounts the perfered cannon mount? Are stern guns usefull, in that they do not help sink a boat much, or just sidemounts?
The stern guns are situationally useful. You won't kill anyone with them outright, but you can do some decent damage to anyone willing to follow you through a turn. While you don't score so many belows with them, you do score some ons (or close to on) which puts water in the hull, especially when they are forward. The damage adds up, especially when you get forward and if you pop a few belows in from the sidemounts and someone if a little slow with their pump switch, things can get ugly quickly when those "aboves" become "effective belows". Triple stern monsters such as the SoDak lose some of the edge they had being able to punch some pretty huge holes in people with rapid-fire triples, but make up for it with a better pump and the ability to split a unit to run 75 round sidemounds. Sidemounts are definately the preferred mount, but when I was in the IRCWCC, we only counted points at NATS anyways, so I wouldn't think that the points alone are reason enough to prefer sidemounting to stern guns. Even the regionals battles only counted sinks. What hurts the stern gun IMO more then lack of points is the rate of fire restriction. With only two shots per second, you aren't doing massive amounts of damage in small areas in very short windows of opportunity. Speed also plays a role. The faster ships find them selves doing more attacking then defending, and a stern gun is most easily used as a defensive weapon. My Invincible's stern gun is usually the first one to go empty, as I find myself getting "picked on" by the faster ships, and tend to turn away and hammer at their bows with the stern gun and aft sidemount. The faster ships seem to favor the bow sidemounts as they spend a lot of time on the offense. The slower ships tend to battle a little more defensively, and get better service out of their stern guns by making people pay who want to close with them. Mike D
So the perfered cannnon for say a South Dokota (they are pretty fast) might be 2 sidemounts on each side (4 total) and two pumps?
We don't allow a SoDak to have twin sidemounts; she is restricted to the same basic rules as a typical fast gun ship, and can only have 1 gun firing into each quadrant. A captain can however split one of his units and go with a 75 rounder on either side. Guns of larger then 1.5 units are not allowed as sidemounts. Then two pumps and a single stern gun to keep people honest, is how I'd set one up. Of course, the only one I have seen in action is set up in typcial fast gun fashion with triple sterns, two 1-unit sides and a single pump. Mike D
So the above summary of the rule must be out date then.... Do you guys keep current copy on line some place? Also how often should I check for changes?
There is a copy of the rules on the yahoo site (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TreatyCombat/). Rules changes are frozen until after the season is over so we can all discuss (with some experience) what worked and what didn't work. The summary I posted farther up was a few months back, before we had ever had a battle. Now we have a better idea for how everything works, and have some factual basis for our ideas, not just on paper guesswork. Mike D
I've signed up for joining the yahoo group page to see the total specific rules.. but what about Subs and Torp boats in Treaty? are there any torp rules yet? I guess maybe I should wait and read the total rules
Subs and torpedo boats get 1.5 units. (everything gets at least 1.5 units). So the pump will cost you half-a-unit. This allows you a full unit for the cannon. So 50 rounds if it's a single shot (one bb per stick/button movement) cannon. But as they are class 1 ships, they can opt for a spurt/rip gun, where all the ammo (15 bbs) can go all at one shot. You could also set the spurt up so that you get a few small bursts. Three shots of 5 bbs, five shots of 3 bbs and so on. This is pretty much how we represent torpedoes. Mikey
okay.. seeing as how a sub doesnt get a damage control pump. how would a single shot 1 unit stern gun - really simple coil feed BB breech (bouncing BB's) and a pair of 1/4 rip guns on the nose just under the deck.. again really simple.. barrel, oring, mag/breach.. the oring holds 5bb's in a breech just big enough for them .. more then likely I'll use the small disposable c02 cartridges for the co2 handguns. so... can class 1's split single units? I would think that would be more useful in something like a torpedo boat.
We recently passed a rule change on spurt guns: A spurt-gun shall be defined as a 1-unit (15 bb magazine) multi-shot gun. Only class 1 ships may have (1) 1-unit spurt-gun. So, no you could not add spurts in that manner. Mike D
