I think dividing between WW1 and WW2 subs is probably important. Argonaut was, I believe, derived from the German U-Cruisers of the U-139 type as were the IJN KD-1 and KD-2. No love for the RN's K class? What about the M-1? Surely a 12" gun is better than 2x8"?
I'd have to say the Balao class is probably the best if you don't count the type XXI which never really saw combat. It's hard to argue with 10 tubes and a 11,000 mile cruising range. They have longevity too, as the ex USS Tusk was in service with Taiwan as of 2008. If you count the XXI U-boats though it's not even close. 15k+ mile range, 6 forward tubes and 18 knots submerged? That doesn't even mention the hydraulic reloaders for the torpedoes. The type XXI could have been a game changer if it was available sooner.
I would have to agree if the Type XXI was available sooner it would have been a major threat, once it was properly debugged.
The I-400s could have had a big impact, once. If the full 18 had been built and put into service they would have laid out quite a surprise the first time they attacked. 54 bomber float planes would be quite a sight and could do some damage if they hit their target. The problem is the chance of all 54 being recovered is slim I think. There are bound to be planes dispatched to chase the floaters and if those were carrying any kind of cannon, 20 mm or 30 mm say, and depth charges, the 18 surfaced subs would be sitting ducks. The crews were unable to recover and store the planes as fast as they could launch them. And the Japanese didn't have the resources in either men or material to continuously ditch the planes and/or pilot. Using the class for that type of hit and run tactics and for landing commandos type ops they coud have been successful, the hanger would have loads of storage for all kinds of gear and the boat itself was large and quite roomy for a sub, room for those commandos. Not sure if they would be any more effective at sinking ships than any other submarine but they would have a decent chance to escape at 12 kts dove. I think they wouldn't have made a huge difference to the outcome or even length of the war but they were a cool design. J
The biggest problems with the I400's is their size: They were relatively slow to dive IIRC, which makes them more vulnerable to aircraft. In my opinion, among the biggest of Japanese mistakes during the war, was their failure to conduct anti-commerce operations against the allied supply lines with their submarines. The continually tried to use their subs as anti surface ship weapons, when what they really needed to to was attempt to cut those supply lines and actually slow the allied advance. The i400's could have been used as excellent resupply/tender sub to help keep the other I boats at sea and hunting.
Yeah I agree with that, like I said sitting ducks The commerce war aspect was very true. Using a 5 1/2 inch deck gun, they could do some real damage to a merch that found it self alone, just hope there are no planes nearby. J
I think they might have had a brief "happy time" in the Pacific until the Allies transferred some experienced ASW assets from the Atlantic.
Sure, the war was not winnable for the Axis really. That said, attacking the supply lines would cause the Allies to expend resources to defend them. That expenditure of resources would slow the drive across the central pacific buying the IJN time to replace their early losses. Perhaps the Watchtower operation isn't really possible in late 1942, and is delayed into 1943. That allows the IJN more time to recover from Midway before trying to fight at Guadalcanal. Perhaps resources spent on rejuvenating the USN carrier fleet after 1942 are now forced to be spent on ASW warfare, which lowers the amount of force that the USN is able to apply in 1943 in the central pacific. Also, Japan may be able to go back on the offensive in New Guinea, since the USN is not able to adequately supply and support Australia. It's all a lot of what if, and eventually, Japan will lose. The question is the price of victory.
I agree with a united and angry US with it's undamaged industry would have won reguardless of the cost. Just as Yamamato feared and warned.
If the Japanese had done supply attacks from the get go, they would have made things pretty crappy for the Allied forces in the Pacific, may have even delayed the advance into the territory the Japanese took. It would have taken time to build ASW assets, I think escort carriers would have been most effective, but take longer. Japans only hope would have been to take China while the Allies were delayed. Loads of raw materials and a slave labour force/fodder for ground combat. I don't think they would have won by any stretch of the imagination, but they could have extended the war in the Pacific by years. Sorry, off topic. I-400 could have helped with the supply line war, but the Japanese had other submarines for that role. I still think they were better suited for the sneaky, quick little airstrike and inserting saboteurs role. J
The problem is, little airstrike, and given radar...well most of those aircraft are likely to be blown out of the sky before they can really inflict much damage. The best use of them as seaplane carriers is as wolf-pack command ships, using the spotter planes to locate and vector the IJN wolfpacks to the target. That said, I still think the best use of that hangar space is as something to be used to help service the other IJN subs and keep them in the hunting grounds longer.
Granted, but the other natural resources and people were what made China attractive to the Japanese in the first place. If the Allied advance into the Pacific is delayed, wouldn't that have in theory given Japan the time and resources to exploit the Dutch East Indies? J
Doubtful, the Manhatten Project would have ended the war about the same time it actually ended, I dont think there was anything Japan could have really done to prevent that. How long could Japan really stand up to an atomic bombing campaign?
Something to consider is that an attack on allied merchant shipping in the Pacific would also need to be replaced...which along with ASW assets going to the Pacific takes pressure off the U-boat arm.
With out a doubt. The interesting question then becomes does it slow things down in the ETO enough for the atom bombs to be dropped on Germany first?
