The cost of entry with AOS will be overcoming the complexity of building a sailing square rigger that also happens to shoot. :blink: On this topic of increasing fire rates to reduce costs and complexity. The original proposed rules set firing rate at one shot every four seconds with a max ammo load of 50 rounds per gun. The proposed change would allow higher firing rates with fewer guns with increased ammo load per gun but not exceeding the total max ammo load for the ship rate. An addon proposal suggests multiple rounds per shot. I can see this getting complicated fast. I say instead of ruling on the number of guns, fire rates, etc, that we instead regulate rounds per a given time period. Proposal: Limit the number of rounds that can be fired in a given time period across the ship. For example, the current baseline for a 1st rate is 18 rounds every four seconds. This can be achieved with 18 guns firing at four second intervals or 9 guns firing at two second intervals. Call this factor "Throw Weight" (TW). Limit the maximum fire rate to one round per second for any individual gun (eliminates machine guns). Aggregate firing rates for the model cannot exceed its rated TW. Multi-shot cannons are allowed as long as TW is maintained. For example, a frigate with a TW of 8 (eight rounds max per four seconds) can achieve this with four multi-shot cannons firing 2-round loads every four seconds or two cannons firing 4-round loads every four seconds. To keep the TW math simpler, every cannon must have the same firing rate across the model. Starting from the models center, mounted cannons must be set equidistant along the models broadsides. This eliminates captains concentrating firepower in the rear quadrants for example. Each ship class has a maximum allowable ammo load. All mounted cannons must divide this load equally across all magazines. I think the above does a good job at regulating firepower while leaving the individual captain a wide latitude as to how he/she wants to arm the model.
Because that 1st Rate is going to be expensive to arm Before this thread gets to be 30 pages long, maybe it would be a good idea if somebody has a rules idea, that it could be started in its own thread so as to keep things easier to follow. Just a thought.
Was their ever a consensus on a maximum depth and angle for penetrable area? On a Caledonia 1st rate at 60 degrees were looking at 5.5" deep at midships and 5" at 45 degrees. I'd like to see a maximum of 3" as it would match the topside limit. I'm a little concerned as to how 1/32" balsa will hold up under the hydraulic pressure at 5". FYI, 3" reaches to the top of the second level gun-ports on a Caledonia.
I was starting to fit balsa to Minerva over the weekend, and a concern occurred. Then I saw something shiny and it was forgotten, until now. Looking at the huge amount of penetrable area (vertically) on AoS ships (maybe not on xebecs, but definately on frigates and bigger)... All the balsa sheeting I have is 3" or 4". I just looked online and saw that National Balsa has wider sheets, but not in the 'aerolite' grade. Lone Star Balsa has 12" wide wing skins but probably not in a soft balsa either. Of course, with the water pressure loading, we might NEED the non-soft balsa sheets. FWI both companies had surprisingly reasonable prices on the big sheets; I can get enough to sheet Minerva twice for less than $15+S/H from either source. I'm flexible on where to set the limits, but I need a consensus soon as I will be sheeting soon and I'd like to know the limits. 3" above and below sounds good to me. Really, if you've heeled enough to expose half of that below allowance, you're in the process of capsizing anyway. I would suggest 3" above and 2.5" below so that one could use easily-available pre-cut 6" wide balsa sheet for sheeting.
Well out of consideration for members who may not be located in the continental US, where shipping is cheap, using commonly available 6" wide sheets sounds good.
I'm with Tug on this and think that a maximum penetrable window depth would be a good thing. 3" above and below inclusive of the waterline should be the max for use of 6" balsa. Personally, I'd rather have slightly less above and below the waterline (such as 2.5" above and below inclusive of the waterline) to account for the extra material needed to curve up and around the ribs and overlap for gluing. Balsa wider than 4" is usually not available in hobby shops (not that the best balsa is in hobby shops anyway). Anything wider is usually a special order or requires splicing sheets together. The 12" wide balsa is usually used to sheet model airplane wings and tends to be harder than usual for strength and ding resistance.
Part of my acceptance of the less-than-softest balsa (i.e. wing skins) is that the balsa in our ships must be stronger than in 1/144, because the gaps between supporting members, both laterally and vertically, are much bigger and require extra strength. Also, in a big sailing vessel, when you are doing anything other than running before the wind (going downwind), the sides of your ship are under pressure resisting the ship sliding sideways through the water. I was saying 3" above and 2.5" below so that the total height being sheeted (factoring in the hull curvature) would not exceed 6". My frigate needs 6" wide sheets; Rated ships-of-the-line will need wider if we don't limit it, and having a big horizontal joint is suboptimal in our application.
I'm fine with a maximum depth of 2.5 inches. I hadn't considered the availability of balsa, and that is an important concern.
I'm fine with a maximum depth of 2.5 inches. I hadn't considered the availability of balsa, and that is an important concern.
Carl, Saw you video post on the BG forum. I had no idea anybody else was interested in Sail Combat. I gave up on the idea probably ten years ago. Now I see they have a forum here. I built one, a 48th scale of the CSS Alabama. Still sits in my basement sans the guts which were sold. I doubt I'll ever get into it again but I'm still fascinated by the idea and will read this entire forum. Back when I came up with a draft set of rules. I've posted them below. I think a major difference from other RC Combat rule sets was the idea not to control scale or armament as much as create similar sized models. The draft rules only consider armaments and size for a combat factor. It also allowed for use of props based on sailing conditions. Anyhow, I have to run, but I'll come back and read some more later in the week. BTW I also still have a 48th scale combat pirate ship frame rigged out and a couple of fiberglass Ironclad hulls (CSS & US) in storage. TimMc SAIL COMBAT RULES A. ORGANIZATION 1) Officials: The Commanding Officer serves until bored. Then some other sucker is voted in. Delegable duties are: a) Decide if models are built to the rules. b) Decide game-play issues. c) Insure proper safety is taken. d) Controls radio frequencies. e) Maintains Release of Liability forms. f) Maintains ship and skipper roster. g) Maintains and dispenses club funds, keeping a book. h) Produce a newsletter. i) Grant construction waivers. j) Insures honorable behavior. 2) Participants: a) Members must be 18 years of age and battle a warship at least once a year. b) Minors may play as a guest accompanied by their parent or legal guardian. c) All members & guests must sign a Release of Claims form and be informed of safety rules. 3) Dues and fees: Annual Membership dues is $30.00 per year or $40.00 for a single-family household. Part years are prorated. Dues includes $20 for a newsletter subscription and $10 for misc club cost. A CO2 fee of $3 must be paid at each battle. 4) Voting / Rule change: a) Submit to CO with the following: Proposal subject, Page & paragraph, Proposal, Reason, your name. b) Voting will be done via email one month after newsletter publication. c) One vote for each member and an additional vote for every three battles attended. d) Simple majority required for adoption. 5) Research and Development: Must be CO approved, tested for 3 games, then voted on by members for rule adoption. B. CONSTRUCTION 1) General: a) Only sailing vessels that were actually laid prior to1900 may be used. b) Any two published reference books or commercially purchased plan set serve as proof for construction. c) Scale- Any commonly used scale is allowed as long as the model is between 4 and 7 feet in length. Scale should not be tweaked (ex. 1/53rd scale) simply to build a larger model to achieve an advantage. Normal is 1/48th scale for 19th century vessels and 1/24th scale for prior centuries. d) Modifications or using construction rule loopholes to give a ship an unfair advantage will not be allowed or waived. The hobby is an honorable one. 2) Hull: a) Ribs must be 1/4" wide placed on 2" centers. The impenetrable bow and stern solid pieces should be made as small as possible with one to two inches being normal. The side of the ship from one inch below the waterline and down need not be penetrable. The intent is to have the largest possible target area. b) The cap-rail (portion under deck) maybe 1/2" inch thick. Below the cap-rail must be penetrable. c) Model sides should be covered by 6 pound (light) density 1/16" thick balsa wood that is penetrable by cannon fire. One layer of lightweight silk span maybe applied to the interior or exterior surface of the balsa, but not both. Battle damaged balsa maybe be repaired with reasonably small piece of silk span - no huge patches or duct tape. d) Silk span maybe painted with model dope, lacquer-based, water-based, or acrylic enamel paints. Paint must be environmentally safe and may not increase the hardness, strength, or elasticity of the balsa wood. e) The finished ship must be capable of sinking and may not be delayed by compartments, shields, foam, etc. Neutral buoyancy is not allowed (we want to see them sink). Watertight radio boxes maybe used, but must not hinder sinking. f) A bilge pump is allowed, not to exceed 30gph. (30gph = 1/2 gallon a minute for testing purposes) g) A 1/2" deep or smaller water channel maybe used to direct water to the pump. h) Impenetrable interior blast shields should be used to protect interior RC items, but must allow incoming fire to penetrate the hull and fall to the bottom of the boat. i) A recovery float may be used. j) Weighted extended keels of whatever size and weight needed to insure a stable model may be used, though the model must float at the scale waterline. k) The scale waterline must have a distinctive mark. l) Rudders may be of any size, though scale appearance above the water should be maintained as much as is reasonable. m) Propellers maybe used, though the model must use sail as it's main means of propulsion. Non-scale propellers should be placed unobtrusively below the waterline. Propellers are primarily for play when no wind is present or for minor battle positioning (ex. both combatants into the wind, props hold them in position for broadsides). The propeller must not push the model faster than 45 seconds per 100 feet. Only electric motors may be used for propulsion with factory sealed batteries for environmental concerns. 3) Armed warships: a) The number of cannon and placement is that of the real ship. Rotating cannon are not allowed. b) Use .177 inch ball bearings to simulate cannon firing less than 50 lb munitions. Above 50 lb munitions equates to 3/16" ball bearings. c) The protruding length of cannon barrels should be kept reasonably scale. An inch or so is normal. Length should not be added simply to gain accuracy. d) Cannon barrels may not elevate higher than horizontal with the water surface when the model is at rest. e) Rate of fire is as fast as wished though only one ball may fire for each trigger pull. f) Only CO2 cannon & systems of a design approved by the CO maybe used. Tanks, pressure regulators and such must be non-modified from commercial sources. g) A shut off switch must be installed that bleeds all system pressure except the tank and this must be easily accessible from the exterior of the ship. Pressure must be bled before lifting a model from the water. h) Before each battle all cannon must be test fired 3 times into DOW Styrofoam (square edge extruded polystyrene insulation) that is 2 inches thick at a distance of 12 inches. Balls must not penetrate through. i) Before each battle all cannon must be tested for CO2 operating pressure. It may not exceed 140 psig. j) Smoke generators or commercially sold smoke bombs are allowed provided no propelled/exploding pyrotechnics or liquid fuels are used. k) No automated aiming or firing devices are allowed. l) Pyrotechnically devices and bullets (ball bearing substitute) may not be used. 4) Unarmed Trade Ships: To add spice to the game and allow for modelers to get their construction legs, unarmed ships may play as trade ships. All construction rules save those applying to cannon systems apply. 5) Sea Ports: Ports are boxed shaped targets placed on a secluded shoreline for the opposing team to attack. Both ports must be identical in design and must be made so cannon ball damage may be counted. Design is open. C: BATTLE 1) Overall: a) The battle campaign starts at 11am and finishes at 4pm. A team not being ready is no excuse. b) OSHA approved full-face safety shields must be worn at pond-side or within ammo range of battle. 2) Rules of engagement: a) All ships on the water are considered fair game. b) All ships have a right of passage. A stationary ship is not blocking. c) If you can't judge ship position due to distance - don’t. Bring play closer to shore. d) Starboard tacking ships (ship leaning toward left) have the right of way over port tacking ships. Leeward ships (leaning away from other ship) have the right of way over windward ships. e) No model shall intentionally ram or side-swipe another or cause a ram by quickly turning into another's path. Rammed models need not return to port for removal from play. If sunk or removed from play, the removed model's surrender points are scored against the offending team. If intentionally rammed, as determined by the CO, an additional penalty is assessed. f) "Time out" must be called to remove weeds, moss or debris, turn on CO2 or bilge pump, replaced deployed float, etc. The correction is made at the nearest shoreline. The model may not be removed from the water unless it is unsafe to correct in the water. The model may not return to port for 5 minutes after a time out is used. "Time out" must also be called to recover a sunk model or for any entry into water. No battling is allowed during time out though models may return to port, shut off to avoid battery loss, etc. g) Models may be pushed by friendly ships to port, but are still fair game. h) Backing up may only be used to avoid a ram or obstacles. i) No firing skyward when heeled (ship angled). j) A skipper wishing to quit a battle but not return to port must call "five minutes" and identify the model by name so that all players may hear. The model then must remain in play for five minutes during which it is allowed to maneuver and return fire. After 5 minutes the skipper must call "Off five" and remove the model from the water. A "lost ship" penalty will be assessed. If the model returns to port before expiration of the five minutes it is not scored as lost. Once five is called, the ship must either go to port, be scored lost, or be sunk. k) Models removed from the water without waiting five minutes or returning to port are scored as sunk and assessed a penalty. l) A skipper may issue a challenge to any other skipper at any time pertaining to game play or construction. The CO determines the result and penalties, which may include removal of a model from play. 3) Scoring: a) Overall: 1. The winning team of a battle is determined by adding the points for the four segments of a campaign. Ties aren't possible. The monthly points are tallied for an annual winner. 2. The campaign segments and team points are: Combat - 4 points Trade - 2 points Port bombardment - 1 point Scenario - 2 points 3. Combat Factor: 1 points for each .177" cannon 2 points for each 3/16" cannon 2 points for each foot of model (round to the nearest foot) 4. Sunken ships are scored at 100 times the total combat factor. 5. Lost ships are scored at 10 times the combat factor. 6. Surrendered ships are scored at 200 times the combat factor. 7. A ship that has received no waterline or below hits, but somehow sinks, will be declared an un-seaworthy sink and scored at the loss value of the ship. 8. Rammed ships (sunk/removed from play) are scored against the other team at the surrendered value. 9. Penalties are assessed against the combat segment of scoring, then cascade to other scored segments as required. Safety penalties are scored at 1000 points per offense. Other penalties are assessed as determined by the CO by category: Minor - 100, Medium - 250, Major - 500. a) Combat damage: 1. All warship hits that penetrate the balsa hull are scored. Hits on or below the waterline score 50 points each. Hits above the waterline are worth 10 points. Add damage with sinks, losses, surrenders, and penalty points to obtain team standing. b) Trade: 1. Successful completion of a predefined course (may recall multiple laps) trade ships earn 1 trade point. 2. If three trade ships leave port together, stay together, and complete two laps an additional trade point is earned. 3. Add trade points to obtain team standing. If tied then consider trade ship damage to judge winner c) Port bombardment: Seaport hits count 1 point each. Add points to determine team winner. d) Scenario: The scenario segment is not required for normal play. Scenarios are simple objectives laid over normal play. All points scored during a scenario are also scored as normal for other segments. Each scenario contains objectives and a method of scoring. Ties are not possible.
I've learned in my studies that the English built their ships based upon 1/10th scale models of the vessels, and took their measurements directly from them. Much smaller "models" that were built to show the internal structure survive, of almost all ships they build. The enlish maritime museum is filled with them. Many of the plans out there, even drawn centuries later, are based upon those models...its quite an art, but also very much documented - just gota know where to look. But then again, most English ships were former French ships, which built alot better ships than the english ever did. Cheers.
Actually, the British Maritime Museum has a hoard of miniature models of the hull construction of said ships. These scale models were the way the master shipbuilder designed, studied and then build these ships. There is a wealth of technical information available. But you can buy just about any plan-set you need.
Indeed. A continuous fear of the lee shore. Very like the real thing. Need some sea room to blow about in.
Have the 1800's to the 1850's been considered for usage, mainly ships with steam driven propellers? Example HMS Blenheim after refit to 60 gun, steam and propeller. hre is a good video to watch which eliminates the sub motor, I was wondering about. Sail to Steam to Iron - Half a Century of Change https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWPUloWz7gA&t=378s
I have thought about that. I originally learned square-rigged sailing with a small electric motor for propulsion, but once I had a little experience I stopped using it. My only concern with using a screw-driven warship like HMS Blenheim is if electric drive becomes the primary means, rather than the backup means of propulsion. That said, do whatever you want. There are not enough people building these ships to worry too much.
