battle

Discussion in 'North Atlantic Treaty Combat Fleet' started by JasonC, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. JasonC

    JasonC Active Member

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    ok im looking to what day we are having out battle and where at?
     
  2. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    Last I heard it was the weekend of the 9th-10th, I would assume just the Sunday. And as to location I heard mention of Steve's cottage but I don't think that was concrete.
     
  3. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    The new call schedule is out and I've been assigned the duty August 8-15. I can't be more than a 20 minute drive from the hospital so will be limited to battling in or close to Metro.

    I was talking to Steve 3 weeks ago but there were no definite plans to battle at his cottage. I'm expecting him to drop off the HMCS Ontario this week for conversion to Treaty speed. Will confirm then if we can battle at his cottage, which might be within 20 minutes of the forensic psych hospital.

    The next possible weekend for me to battle is August 23-24 - I won't be on call so could battle in the Valley if there's a suitable location. The best metro spot would be the old NABS site at Maynard Lake in Dartmouth, used from 1996-1998.

    I plan to use the coming holiday weekend to finish converting my ships to Treaty stats. How are the rest of you doing with conversions to Treaty speeds and pump capacities?

    Bob
     
  4. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Jason's unable to battle on the weekend of the 9-10th and I'm away in NB the following weekend. Who's able to battle on the 23rd or 24th?

    If the mods to Minoatur and Black Prince reduced their speed enough (to be tested this week) Ralph and I may have a practice battle on the 10th. The pump capacity issue has been solved by installing less powerful motors.

    I understand from Jason that the Von der Tann is still running fast. Haven't heard back from Tom as to whether the mods to Nagato are complete.

    Mike Deskin called last night and offered to assist us with speed reduction. The guys in the Washington Treaty Club have found several types of slower motors that may do the trick.

    Mike's trying to arrange a fall Treaty battle in Mass., which is within 12 hours driving range. If it's a go Ralph and I plan to attend. Anyone else interested?

    Bob
     
  5. JasonC

    JasonC Active Member

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    actually vdt is not bast but her drag props slow her too much in treaty the drags are only allowed to me a 2 second difference on vdt they make a 10 second difference. im good for a battle on the 23th or 24th amd may be intrested in the trip to the u.s
     
  6. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Jason,
    If I'm understanding this correctly the drag props slowed the VdT down to 10 secs below its allowed speed. Try fitting smaller drag props or drag discs, or installing larger propellors to increase the speed. You may have to do both.

    Where in the rules does it say the model must be within 2 secs of its allowed speed? I don't recall reading that.

    Bob
     
  7. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    I can battle any weekend until I return to the ship in mid-late September.
    As well I'd be interested in the road trip as long as I'm still around.
     
  8. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    He is going correct speed, but his drag props are slowing him down by 10 seconds in order to be on speed. In the rules it states drag disks can be used but there must only be a 2 second variation.

    "4. The ship shall be equipped with a scale number of shafts. Each ship must have a scale number of props. Non-powered props must be scale, or the same size or smaller than the powered props. Speed trim disks may not exceed the size of the drive props, and must be center mounted. They cannot generate more than two seconds of variance in the 100 ft speed course."

    Now reading this as I post, are drag props considered the same thing as drag disks, or is it only if you use an actual disk instead of a prop.
     
  9. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    Drag disks and drag props are the same. The two seconds thing is a little bit confusing; I had not noticed that in there before. My interpretation is that the difference is between forward and reverse...meaning that if you reverse, you can't have more then 2 seconds difference between your forward and reverse speed (read no folding drag disks to allow super reverse).
     
  10. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    I thought it meant that your drag props/disks could only slow you down by 2 seconds,due to the mention to the 100ft speed course(which is only run in forward)

    Founders what's your take?
     
  11. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    We've never really run speed tests without the disks to see how effective they are. The think that we've looked at at the meets I have attended for Treaty were:

    1. Are you on, or below speed? Below is OK, over isn't acceptable.
    2. Are the drag disks about the same size as your drive props or lower?

    It's possible that none of the founders will be able to get on prior to NATS, but I will be seeing one of them tomorrow for the ride out there, and staying at the house of a second while there, so I will make sure that this gets addressed soon.
     
  12. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    As Mikey said during our telephone chat a few days ago, we're free to operate with local club rules. Suggest that as long as our ships are at or below maximum allowed speed they can compete (regardless of drag disc/prop size), pending future mods such as less powerful motors.

    The priority now is getting ships on the water so we can start battling and having fun.

    Bob
     
  13. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    I just talked to Mikey, and he said the spirit of the rule was to keep people from trying to "beat the rules" so to speak and crank up their thrust to enable better turning. So, we've never really tested that part of the rule, and if it's a problem is something that's worth changing. We'd definitely be interested in the performance data that you guys generate to help determine what kind of variance there should be. Bob's right though, just do what you need to do to get on speed, then start having fun!

    It's honestly something I never thought about when I read the rules. I'm running direct drive 550s in my Invincible, there's no way I'd be legal without my disks...and my props are nearly flat as it is! The more I think about it though, the more I want to look at using less powerful motors for both drive and pumps. I'm wasting a lot of amp hours on my batteries right now. It's time to start looking at efficiency so I can run the same batteries for longer periods of time.
     
  14. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Many of us locally use cast bronze Rivabo props from Europe that come in sizes from 30mm (about 1.2") to over 100mm, and with 3 or 4 blade options. Pitch is fixed at about 45 degrees and virtually impossible to change without ruining the props. The props are threaded so can quickly be exchanged to fine tune speeds.

    The problem we're having in converting to Treaty speeds is that the smallest size prop diameter is 30mm, but we need 25mm or smaller to avoid having to replace our motors or use excessively large drag props/discs.

    The problem is worse with 2 shaft ships with very low speeds and nowhere to put the discs except ahead of the props, which makes the models considerably slower in reverse. I have the weakest available motors installed in HMS Gorgon and HMCS Prince Robert (both Class 1) for them to run at their IRCWCC speed of 28 sec. That's much faster than their Treaty speeds of 38 and 40 sec/100'.

    With no smaller props available for that size of threaded shaft it'll probably be necessary to turn each prop down gradually on a lathe until the correct speed is reached, then make spares because losing a prop is not uncommon. Doable but a pain in the behind!

    Bob
     
  15. bb26

    bb26 Well-Known Member

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    Why not order the 3/4 inch props from Battlers? They have them in 25 or 40 pitch.
     
  16. CURT

    CURT Well-Known Member

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  17. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Certainly some good points to consider Curt. My Class 1 Gorgon and Prince Robert models are quite peppy at IRCWCC speeds with small motors - no problems with motor strain or current draw are expected in reducing their speed by about 50%. They both weigh under 6 lbs.

    I think the much heavier Black Prince and Minotaur with the same small motors will be under allowed speed but there's room for larger diameter 4 blade props if they're too slow. Whether the motors can stand the strain or not remains to be seen. (Speed testing was delayed for the 4th consecutive day by rain.)

    Paul's suggestion re smaller props from BC will work for ships like Tom's Nagato or Jason's Von der Tann that were built with BC supplied props and shafts, but not well on the metric threaded shafts some of us use. The set screws won't be secure on the threaded ends and the US and metric shaft diameters are slightly different. I prefer to stick with the threaded shafts so I can quickly reinstall the props (and other equipment) used to convert the models to IRCWCC specs.

    All systems in my ships are modular with the aim of being able to convert a model from Treaty to IRCWCC specs and back in an evening. Each ship being modified will have two different pumps and/or pump outlet restrictors, and two different sets of drive motors and/or porps and drag discs/props.

    Bob
     
  18. froggyfrenchman

    froggyfrenchman Well-Known Member

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    All
    Sorry to have been out of contact. I am running the road again, and have been hard pressed to get on-line.
    The main thing is to get the boats on the water and start having fun.

    At our first event, a couple of guys showed up from BBS, and we allowed them to battle after fixing a few of the things.
    The goal is that the ships convert to Treaty specs in a reasonable time.
    Having everything changed over before the first event may be a stretch in some cases.
    I will post more on the theory behind the drag disk rule later, as I am leaving out for our Nats event.
    Mikey
     
  19. slow_and_ugly

    slow_and_ugly Active Member

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    Hi,
    Any date for the next outing? Trials or battle I don't care
     
  20. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    Rob the first battle is this coming weekend. I don't think we have the location firmed up yet. I know Maynard lake was an option, or the Grove if it's not busy. If Bob is not on call then it can also move out of the city.