Well all, after the last thread on new ships, I'd like to prose that we try to find a ship or two produced by Battlers Connection that one could build up as a loaner/starter ship. As it has been quite a long time since I built a good beginner ship, I figured that I would put this out there. If I can front the outlay the plan is to get my Tirpitz running and then get a beginner ship going that I can take ample pictures of and create a set of build "instructions/suggestions" for said ship, and at the same time have something for someone who wants to try battling to fight with. What I am looking for is the following... What people think would be a good starter ship Pictures of currently functioning and combat effective internal layouts Cannon/pump layout & distribution of battle units. Please note that said ship should be both easy to build, easy to operate for the beginner, and have available hulls/decks/superstructure (rudimentary) from BC. Righty-o... Flame suit on... Have at it folks. thanks Greg
Well, if transports were part of the standard fast gun sortie, I have a perfect little 5400GRT oiler made up for a wooden hull. I need to check to see if it conforms to the rules, but if it does (or requires a minimum of modifications to be legal) it would be an excellent wooden hull. Not too difficult to build, either. And, just because you have your flame suit on, I think I'll prepare a pot of boiling oil to pour on you. Anybody got a torch?
Unfortunately, Transports are not good fast gun starter ships, as they are A. Unarmed, and B. Useless in the standard fast gun furball... (we don't often run convoy missions, out in my region, I can recall only one convoy battle in the last few years) thanks Greg
yes, we dont do convoy battles very much in BBS either ... however we have a ruling here that you can arma convoy with 1 unit i believe? perhaps with a setup like that it would make it better? however, i dont think thats the best situation for someone new - slow as heck and everyone chasing them? I'd say give them a cruiser USS Northhampton or USS Baltimore classes would be good.
I'm not a big fan of most of the BC selection for rookies. The VDT is the best of the bunch if the prospective captain is interested in Axis, although she's a bit cramped for a new builder. So, I'd have to say the Suffren (I can't believe I just recommended a French ship...seems un-American of me). She's long enough to give the builder some room, and has dual rudders, which will help her turning. A 3-shaft layout means that the captain only has to worry about one motor. She has enough turrets laid out to give the captain at least a few options for arming, with dual sterns probably being preferred. At most, the captain would only have 2 guns, 1 pump and 1 drive motor to worry about, so the KISS principe (can't be overstated of importance for a rookie) applies. her speed, coupled with her turning ability should help rookie captains get out of trouble fairly easily. The last thing, and fairly important IMHO, is that she can battle Allied or Axis. That allows a one-ship fits all scenario for a new captain coming in...he isn't stuck to a side because of the boat he has. The only thing she DOESNT have is sidemounts, which is why I prefer class 4's for rookies because they have a few more options available for different tactics and battling styles. But since, we are limited to BC ships, Its Suffren all the way, baby. Good Mike
The problem with the Suffren is that the fiberglass hull from BC has rather too much volume. It can't be made to float at a reasonable water line with legal weight. For those interested in building their own hull, plans can be found here: http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/02fonds-collections/banquedocuments/planbato/planbato/listebato/listebato.php Additional consideration is that single shaft ships won't back up straight. Which will make a rookies life very difficult.
All good points, so perhapse we should expand the search chriteria to "fiberglass hulls available" which would include barnstormer boats and any others that I am not familiar with.. perhapses their Prinz Eugen, as it has a finished superstructure to boot...
Prinz Eugen would be a fairly decent ship given your criteria. She'd have the same backing up problem as the Suffren would though, as she's also a single shaft ship. I'm not sure just how big of a deal that would be in the grand scheme of things, but it would certainly be something to think about. As for Suffren, not floating at a decent waterline is be a fairly serious problem, and one I wasn't aware of. I've only seen one Suffren in action, and don't know if it was a BC Suffren or if she came from another source. Ralph Coles I believe also makes an Admiral Hipper hull which is similar, although a bit shorter. The benefit of the Prinz Eugen/Hipper, is its a cool looking ship, and cool looking ships help to attract people. Realistically though, The PE is more famous then the Hipper and has the benefit of the complete superstructure. With any fiberglass hull as an option, the Ralph Coles Indefatigable would be a solid Allied option. There's a little more room in there then in a VDT, and there is a little more weight to work with. I've got an old Swampy Invincible, and after seeing the Coles Indefatigable hull, I'd say the Indefatigable is probably a little easier for a rookie. The Invincible is a tight fit much like the similar-sized VDT, but then again, the Swampy version is also shorter then it should be. The superstructure, while not pre-fabbed anywhere, is pretty simple. I think that the "better" ships would also depend on exactly WHAT the question you are asking is too. If you are asking for a ship that you will loan other people, a large-ish cruiser such as Prinz Eugen or Suffren is probably a safe bet. These are simple and easy for YOU to maintain in addition to your own personal combat ship. They are also fairly easy to "drive" so to speak which will lead to whoever is borrowing the ship to have an enjoyable experience. If you are recommending something for a rookie to build though, a little bit larger vessel is probably preferable. Here, the Indefatigables, VDTs, and Moltkes (not sure if they are available anywhere...Bowning shipyards in Australia maybe?) have the edge. These have more firepower options (sidemounts) and more hull volume to build and absorb damage with then the cruisers do. A rookie will probably continue to have fun with a BC a bit longer then with a CA. Good Mike
Swampy IS still trying to sell his business.. I think "trying to sell out" might have a distasteful connotation... I talked to someone who had approached him about buying, and I was FLOORED by the price they said he wanted. Really out of sight. Steve's a cool guy and done a lot for model warship combat (not just MWC, all the 144 groups), but DAMN, he wanted a sh**-ton of money. I suspect he will have the molds and stuff sitting in a storage place forever at the price asked. Again, not calling him a bad person, far from it, just don't think his asking price will be met.
Primarily it is geared for me to build one of, build a manual off of and some templates for mounting, layout, wire length & connectors, etc, and then both loan out to people / sell to a really determined rookie (locally) and then build another one of. As far as CA versus BC/BB I suspect that in this neck of the woods, the CA would be better because they will be dealing with my tirpitz, which can engage and disengage any of the common smaller (and much slower) BC/BB's at will. The goal is to at a bare minimum have an instruction manual around that a new person could follow and have a combat effective ship. Even if they do (as most everyone does) build another ship the next year, at least they start with a functioning ship and the experience of doing it right the first time. Ralph's hulls are out as he will not be making more till he gets back sometime either fall of 07 or sometime in 08 from Africa. I hope he returns to making hulls when he returns but if we want to see his hulls come back some of us will have to step up and help convince him that he want to continue making hulls . I have offered to setup a website with paypal for him, and if he takes it up I think it will help get the word out about his great hulls. -Greg
Given that Ralph's hulls are out, I'd say go Prinz Eugen. She's fairly simple, and I'm sure many of the fittings you made for your Tirpitz would transfer nicely over to a Prinz Eugen. She's got the internal volume to take a few hits from your sidemounts and survive. That internal volume is also space for your rookie to work on the ship and get a feel for how to maintain it without being too cramped. All in all, she should be a fairly forgiving ship for a first time battler, and easy to maintain, not to mention good looking. As for the other thing, as an Invincible captain, I don't find I'm overly afraid of Bismarcks. They can engage me or not at will, but once they DO engage, the fight is on MY terms due to my maneuverability. I'm far more afraid of Badens, Konigs, and Nassaus then the big fast BBs. Good Mike
HI guys! Hey can I wade in here for a minute? Every one has kicked around all good ships. But I have to say I think a Balitmore class cruiser would fit the bill. First off you have 3 1/2 units and a good amount of hull volume. currently Barnstromer has my hull that he is working on to put into production. I have fought against every ship in the book with My Oregon City and held my own. It has decent fire power and is a repestable ship with not a lot of high in maintence. Now I also have the first HMAS Austraila BC that was built in the hobby and my daughter Kate has run it for 3 years and they are tough ships!!After seeing this ship about I know of 2 others that are out and they are performing bettere due to the hull over the Invinceables.
I was going to use the Des Monies as a starter but changed my mined. Its a pretty good ship but it long wich makes turning more diffuclt.
NEW ORLEANS.......=o)....KISS....3 unit simple, Also turns good or so I am told...downside no kit..plans only...do you like to build?...if so your choices are almost limitless..so long as it conforms to the rules...=o)
