big gun vs fast gun

I've alway wonderd who would win in a a battle big gun vs fast gun same ships on both sides wonder who will win?

 

If the fastgun ships could follow fastgun rules and not be hobbled by penetration tests, firing rates, pump rates or speed rates like the big gun ships, I would probably say fastgun. Otherwise, big gun has a huge advantage.
Chase

 

ok thanx for your opion

 

The foam test is a big strike against bb cannons. The smaller bb with less surface area passes through the foam far easier than a 7/32" or 1/4" ball bearing. To pass the foam test, the bb cannon has to be detuned to the point that the bb will not pass through 1/16" or larger balsa sheeting used on most of the big gun ships. Bb cannons rely on velocity for penetration, not mass like big gun cannons.

That is a huge disadvantage to a fast gun ship. The other stuff like rofs and speed are doable.

 

Actually, not correct, Mike. Due to the lighter mass, BB's can have a higher velocity and still pass the foam penetration test. My son's Mogador had no problem probing BBs into a 1/8' armored Mushshi at NABGO - pretty easy to tell the copperhead BBs from the other ball bearings solling areound in that behemoth.
Remember, in Big Gun, BB is one of the calibers we use. We would not make it where a BB could not penetrate all legal armor, or they would be totally unused. They do make a smaller hole, though.
We now have a couple of Small/Fast Gun ships in the NTXBG. Once refurbed, our plan is to battle them under the rules exceptions we plan to grant to Small/Fast Gunners to help reduce the issues of battling under Big Gun rules and see how they work out.
I think the question as originally posed has a flaw. Big Gun vs Fast Gun - under what rules?
If you are talking Big Gun operating under Big Gun rules vs Small/Fast Gun operating under, say IRCWCC or MWC rules, then the Big Gun is probably toast due to the rate of fire restrictions etc. in Big Gun. Plus, the magazine capacities, pumps, etc. would make them illegal to start. But, if allowed Small/Fast Gun speeds, battle reverse, and no rate of fire limitations, and being able to "Pump Up" the guns, not so clear who would be the victor mano a mano. Probably boil down to captains - maneuverability aoopsed to morce majeure,
Big Gun vs Small/Fast Gun under the NABGO modifications, less clear, but the Small/Fast Gun ships would not be under near the disadvantage they percieve. Methinks a fair fight.
Big Gun vs Small/Fast Gun under straight Big Gun rules with a stock Small/Fast Gun ship, probably Big Gun victory as the Small/Fast Gun ship would be severely hobbled in sheer number of guns (unless they wanted to add a lot for the battle, which would, of course, be allowed). Arm all those secondaries, and the outcome is a lot less sure.
Cheers,

 

Passing through 1/8" balsa above water is one thing, passing through water first would be another issue, and that I think Is what Mike is referring to?

 

Pretty much, yes. Bb cannons detuned to pass the foam test have major issues with making belows even on 1/32 balsa sheeting.

A Treaty battler did a velocity test on bb cannons using the blue foam test. He discovered that bb cannons had to be detuned to 195'ish fps to consistantly pass the 2" blue foam test. At that velocity, bb cannons will fail to penetrate 1/32" balsa after traveling more than a couple inches under water.

Now imagine a fast gun BB with supposedly 16" guns in big gun trying to penetrate 1/16" or thicker balsa with a detuned bb cannon ... heh. Impossible to make belows, and a high chance of failure to make aboves.

 

you know even if the bb cannons had to pass the foam test but got to keep rate of fire it might not matter. My thinking is because the sheer number of bb's on that specific point literally shredding a hull section might be enough to start the boat on its way down if they are all right around the waterline. lets say a fast gunner shreds a panel at waterline, the ships normal running will cause it to start shipping water and listing allowing even more water to pour in the much larger hole.

Now I do believe class of ship would matter a lot. for example I would think big gun would have the advantage in the large battleships because they can take more punishment, but fast gun would have a huge advantage in the smaller ships because of lighter armor and the smaller hull volume so a shredded panel is much more devastating.

In theory at least haha it might be a fun little experiment to try out.

 

If you do the math, the fast gun ship has the advantage in hole area:

Each BB inflicts a hole ~0.5x as big as a 1/4 inch round. Even at 2 seconds/round, that's twice the hole area of a 1/4 in barrel. So a KGV with quad sterns would inflict the equivilant of an 8 gun broadside.

I know that that is a simplification, and it doesn't count many factors like flow through the smaller hole sizes, but it also doesn't count how high fast gun accuracy is compared to big gun accuracy, or any other factors that would help the fast gun ship. And at big gun speeds, that accuracy would likely go up significantly.

At least to me, it sounds like the fast gun ship wouldn't be at an extreme disadvantage.

 

It seems like in Big Gun a lot of the fighting is at close range. I would think you could likely get bellows at that range, and you might be able to get under the guns of some of the big gun ships. Granted, this is all just speculation, but still...

 

If this hypothetical battle was to actually happen I think range would be the big gun ships best friend. BB struggle to go through the water at range and at least from the photos I have seen fast gun ships keep their guns pointed down so they can hammer at close range were as the big guns can elevate to horizontal making long range shots at the least possible although difficult.

 

There are a number of problems to overcome in a Big Gun vs Fast Gun fight. It's comparing apples to oranges. They are two different games that, through pure chance, happen to be set in the same scale, and using the same base models for inspiration.

First lets talk about the differences in firepower and protection. I don't think it would be as big an issue as you might think. It's been a long time since anyone has chrony'd a foam-tested bb gun, but IIRC it peaks out around 212fps. I'd appreciate if some Fast Gunners would provide their numbers, but it seems about right. And at that speed, the bbs have no problem penetrating Big Gun's heaviest armor, perpendicular to the hull at close range. At longer ranges, and at bad angles, you'll have lower probability of penetrating. But I don't see that as a problem, since most Fast Gunners do their killing with sidemounts that fire at close range, from pretty good angles. Also keep in mind that the thinner armor of Fast Gun may actually provide more protection from larger rounds than smaller. When I ran my torpedo-boat against Fast Gun boats, oftentimes my larger 1/4" rounds merely pushed aside a flap of balsa, that then unfolded right back into place, almost re-sealing the hole. The stiffer Big Gun armor doesn't do that. The hole was bigger, but the flooding was not. Overall, I think firepower and protection is a wash. It could go either way.

Next let's talk about speed and maneuverability. This is the single biggest obstacle, because there isn't a really good solution. Fast Gun ships simply cannot run at Big Gun speeds. And it's not fair to ask them to, because their entire system is based around their speed and maneuverability. On the other hand, we cannot leave the Big Gun ships at Big Gun speeds, either. If that speed difference is left in place, the Fast Gun ship would be able to dictate the terms of every engagement with its superior speed and maneuverability. The only possible solution is to increase speed on the Big Gun ship, the question is how much is fair.

Another issue is endurance. Big Gun ships are designed from the start, to last for hours of combat. My Viribus Unitis could maintain 10 minutes of sustained, maximum-ROF fire from every gun, and had enough CO2 for twice that. Some of the bigger ships can do that for almost an hour. On the other hand, I have seen some Fast Gun ships empty their magazines in seconds. That brings up the issue of burst vs sustained damage-dealing. It wouldn't be much of a fight if the FG ship pulled alongside and emptied its magazines into the BG ship in 30 seconds, then ran away for the rest of the round. The BG ship would only get 3 or 4 shots in return. Not a very fair exchange.

That said, I would love to try out a battle. Unfortunately my Viribus Unitis is in desperate need of an overhaul. And the Gascoigne never got its guns working quite right. Either one would be an interesting match, though. The VU is a prickly little hedgehog that I'd face off against any WWI capital ship. And the Gascoigne was designed to eat Iowas for breakfast. If I could get its guns working well, and bump it up to a comparable FG speed, it would probably be a good match against anything from WWII.

 

I am not entirely sure you would have to up the speed of big gun to make it fair, and wouldnt changing anything make it no longer FG vs BG?

I think there is only one way to settle this to see who would win and have some fun, an EXPERIMENT!!!

1st: would be single ship action one on one over 3 battles, battle 1: under complete FG rules, speeds and fire rate, battle length ect (although BG accumulators naturally slow fire rate), battle 2: under complete BG rule, speed and fire rate, battle length etc. battle 3: Fight to the death aka sink with each ship running using its own battle rules.
2nd: would be fleet action repeating the same 3 battle format as stated above.

My hypothesis is that the FG team would be more successful in single ship action due to the ability to run around and dictate the battle but I believe in fleet action the BG team would be more successful because in the scrum of massive battle the ability to not have to maneuver ones ship to aim and instead rotate the guns to the target.

No matter what the outcome the two most important aspect of this great obsession will accomplished: Fun and of course CARNAGE!!!!

 

If Big Gun ship speeds are 63.1% of the Dynamic Similtude Speed, maybe they could run at some larger percentage, so that their speeds are close to their fast gun equivilants. Or, maybe all the ships, big gun and fast gun, could run at that speed.

 

I'm amending the saying "2 wrongs don't make a right" to say "2 unfair battles don't make a fair battle"
The fast gun ship would crush the big gun ship in the third round...
If it survived the first round!