I'm starting a new topic because of drift, but I think it's drifting into an interesting direction. Under Technical/Research and Development/Web-Based Control/ a less technical & more philosophical issue has come up. To summarize (& I hope I'm getting this right), at issue is whether or not it is appropriate for somebody to be a shipbuilder only, or a captain only, or is it necessary to be both? I don't know if there's a "right" answer, or just opinions. I know what my opinion is, but I'm interested in hearing what others think. JM
Sure you can be a ship builder or just the captain. What a pleasure that would be of no more headaches building a ship or keeping it running. However the builder would have to been a captain at one time. There is a lot of little things that goes into a ship that you only know about because of being the Captain. It would be a desire to have the Captain with some building skills also but I don't think it's a real requirement. My 2 cent on the topic Danny
You already know what i think. Nice idea, but not right for the hobby, in that separating the build and the captain isnt right.
Boomer, I am curious then how you feel about people that buy the ready to battle used ships from the vets. That is technically the same as buying a ready to run boat and jumping in. Do you see a difference and if so, why?
Would i buy a ship used? Yes, would i do it as my first ship? no. Now personally, i wouldnt buy a ship from anyone i wasnt friends with, as if i had any issues, i want to know i can trust the person to help me. Also, i see a bond between man(or woman) and ship, there is something about building a ship or anything for that matter with you own 2 hands that makes it special. And the difference, is that having a separate battler will lead to someone battling a ship that isnt theirs and isnt from someone they know and it will soon just become an online game of sorts.. In general, i just dont like the idea, but buying a ship is different because its not like your playing a video game, you make it you own, you put your stamp on it. Call me sentimental if you want.
I'm curious why you think it isn't right. Not trying to change your opinion; it just seems to be particularly strong & I wonder why that is. Knowing why you feel so strongly about it might help us understand how to make the hobby more appealing to certain people. Thanks. JM
I will throw my 2$ in here with some rc airplane experience at the clubs I have belonged to. This is during the ascension of the cost effective arf (almost ready to fly) aircraft as the primary aircraft flown at the fields I am part of. Originally, many of us were of the opinion that building and flying were two parts of the same whole, without one, the other would wither and die. We were dead set against the arf craze as it came up upon us. And initially, it seemed, we were correct, as the first round of them were poorly constructed and in many cases, barely air worthy or safe, but they were still expensive. But they got better and better. And my flying buddies, most far older than me, got older. And we watched as the clubs declined, with little new blood. There was a period where the unspoken fear was that the clubs would just die off as the people who were getting to old to fly or to repair were leaving but little new blood was coming in. Just about that time, the ARF's finally got their act together, and at a reasonable price, put out a really good flying airplane that was structurally sound. This lack of building allowed people who do not have time to build to get into flying RC. This ended up bringing a whole lot of new people into rc airplanes (the heli's had previously gotten a lot of them because building a heli is straight forwards and does not take an artists touch nor the amount of time). These new people have ensured that the clubs I belong to will survive. Now there are downsides... many a repairable arf ends up trashed rather than repaired due to a lack of basic skills, but that, in my opinion, is a small price to pay, for all the new folks out at the fields to fly with and chat with. There are many of us still interested in building, but I have to admit that people are becoming better faster because they can simply throw money at the problem (see rc heli's) if they crash, rather than weeks or months worth of time, like when I was starting out. Unfortunately, time is limited for folks and there are lots of commitments that most of us have for that time. And only so much, especially for folks with kids, is available for hobbies. I, for one, would rather have folks out on the water who know enough to maintain their ships, than folks that are not due to a lack of time to build a ship. At this point I would settle for actual kits for folks rather than hulls that are basically scratch built other than a few bits that result in no two ships of the same type having the same internal layout... Not that experimentation is a bad thing, but not even having a "this is a detailed successful way to build a beginner ship" tends to make it more difficult to get people to commit their time and money.
S*** happens. While a builder knows how to get into his boat and fix it, a non-builder will have much more trouble. I know one person whose ships were all built by other people. When his boats work, he isn't a bad captain at all. It's just that they don't work as often as people who build their own boats. I am worried about the two younger members who joined last year since they both bought "RTR" used boats. However, they are also talking about and making plans to build their own new boats, which will set my mind at ease once they get to work and start learning the nuts and bolts. I think that the hobby needs new members, and that one way to help these new members get started is for them to get a fighting ship as soon as possible. That could mean selling them a used ship, it could mean developing a kit. I'm not decided yet if fully RTR boats are a good idea. People who buy them may get frustrated when they don't work, or they may be the perfect hook to keep such people interested while they build their own personalized ship. As Greg said, you need "a really good flying airplane that was structurally sound". I think a kit, such as the Rookie Ship Design (once we get around to designing mounts and selecting equipment), is a good start: the rookie is saved from some of the design work, but still has to get his hands dirty and learn the guts of his ship inside and out.
I think a RTB ship is a great idea. Does it mean people will get into the hobby knowing nothing, Sure! The ones that get hooked will learn or be motivated to build their own soon enough. We just can't seem to leave well enough alone. People will also get frustrated cause their boat never works and leave. Chances are those people would have never built one in the first place. The best part about a premade boat is you can reverse engineer it and see what make it tick. I always do that with boats I see. Some of the basic stuff is time consuming and a pain. How many times do I really want to sand down a subdeck to fit or seal them with epoxy. I'll pass on that. Also I don't really see a need to keep installing stuffing tubes and rudder shafts, That could be done also. Will you learn how to build everything, No. Some people don't have the patientence to do all that anyway but make great battlers. Others don't have the time. I think it is a great idea and would work well if we could get it together like the model airplane guys did. The hobby would take off. The more people to battle, the more fun it could be. Just my thoughts,
Greg pretty much said everything I would have said. Like him, I came from an RC aircraft background and saw what ARFs have done (good and bad) to the RC airplane hobby. In my opinion, it has been more good than bad. I also firmly believe that a class 1 - 3 Ready to Battle ship would be good for our warship hobby. Most new captains will base thier decision to stay in the hobby (and move up into larger more complicated ships) on how much they enjoy battling, not on how long it takes to scratch build or kit build thier first ship. The concept has already been proven in the RC Airplane community.
I am one of those that started flying RC planes with an RTF airplane. Actually I started on a simulator, then bought an RTF and went out to the field to get a taste of flying. I've seen people who crash there first plane and give up. For my part I learned to glue things back together, repair electronics, and rebuild linkage. It wasn't long till I wanted a nicer plane. The next one was an ARF with all the recommended accessories. Then several ARFs that I modified to suite my own tastes. This progression allowed me to learn the skills to maintain, repair, set up, and build airplanes over time. Over the last 9 months I've acquired, assembled, and maintained 6 planes. I've also been able to to fly enough to feel confident about flying more detailed and expensive planes. Some day I will scratch build a plane, and I will do a much better job because of the experience I've had with commercially produced planes. Being able to buy a nearly complete ship won't keep people from learning to build. It will just mean that a new builder can learn at his own pace.
As they said in the movie, "build it and they will come." If individuals can get into the hobby and battle a ship they will most likely get 'the fever' and stay. And when they get the support from others in the clubs, they will want to learn how to correct problems in their systems. I mean after going swimming a few times, anyone would want to find out why my, erhh, their pump stopped working! (smiles) That said, in my opinion, whether they buy em' or build em' it's great to have more ships and new friends on the water.
I agree that ARF combat ships are the best way to expand the hobby. My club is barely maintaining its average turnout of 10 ships per sortie, and that is even after the Maker Faire recruiting. I also notice that ARF seems to be the general consensus of the people commenting in this thread. But I'm curious. What IS an ARF combat ship? Is it a BC kit an ARF? Is a ship with guts installed, but unpainted and without batteries an ARF? How about a hull with mounting hard-points for all the components installed, along with detailed directions and the components? Once we know WHAT an ARF combat ship is, we need to know WHICH ship to make an ARF combat ship. Should it be a destroyer or cruiser? what about a Battleship? Or a Battlecruiser? Fast Gun? Big Gun? Battlestations? ACW?
Alright guys, this isnt necessarily about RTR ships, although it sort of is. What it is about, is the establishment of people who only build ship, and of people who dont build, but only battle, as in throughout the entire hobby, not just the odd RTR ship every now and then. Although, i do have to say the a nice little cruiser for guys to putt along in cheaply would be a great idea.
ARF, if we keep with the airplane definition, would be: install servos/Receiver and motors and go. Although given waterproofing requirements it would probably have to be "install receiver and go" sort of thing... BC kits are only a kit. As far as only builders vs only battlers there will always be a collection of folks who build more than they battle, and the reverse. There will never be homogenaety (spelling horrible) in our hobby.
Many of our father son teams start out with a builder and a battler! After a while, the father can't stand standing on the bank any longer. Marty
Ahh, but it did work It got some folks on the water faster than they would have... and then the builders finally came around and said "wait a minute, me too!"
Personally I hate building and don't think there is anything wrong with people who choose to not build their own ships. That said, if they fail to learn how their ships work and maintain them, well they deserve to get sunk. Different people enjoy different aspects of the hobby.
I wish we had what R/C airplanes have. I remeber my father do what we do now scratch build. He would enlarge plans out of R/C Modeler and go from there. This hobby has been around since the 80s and what is there to show for it? Skunk is gone. There are no kits say like that Revell 1/144th kit that came out. That is not good example. This hobby is stuck in neutral because no one is making kits for this hobby. I am talking about Great Planes,Byrons,ect.
