Canarias and Cumberland/Suffolk Refit

Discussion in 'North Atlantic Battle Squadron' started by Bob Pottle, Sep 6, 2015.

  1. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Last September I bought SNS Canarias back from Larry Dingle and yesterday I got HMS Cumberland back from Brechin Piper. I'd started to build the Cumberland as HMS Suffolk, the only two Kent Class cruisers with cut-down quarterdecks. The hull was finished and much of the internal equipment installed when I decided to build the Canarias (which uses the same hull and can battle Axis or Allied) instead. Cumberland was sold in 1998, with turrets but no superstructure.

    The plan is to build two nearly identical models (in terms of combat capability). The only significant difference between them is that the Cumberland's stern guns can be depressed more than those in Canarias due to the cut-down quarterdeck.

    The mostly fiberglass superstructure on the Canarias is in surprisingly good shape and needs only filling and sanding of BB damage, one new secondary gun and a repaint. The Cumberland's styrene superstructure is quite accurate but will be very difficult to strip for a repaint and has quite a few cracks at joints from BB impacts; a new styrene superstructure will be built.

    The drive train design in both models is identical. Both used Robbe kits for the rudders, which need to be enlarged by 50%. The interior layout in Canarias is quite different than when I first owned it, and Cumberland's is different again. I'll probably use the CO2 capsule system and Palmer 'Rock the Boat' regulator system originally installed in Canarias for both models - I have a couple of hundred 35 gm capsules. The RtB regulator and CO2 capsule were installed between the prop shafts in Canarias, allowing more room and weight to be dedicated to increased battery capacity.

    The first step in the refit was to strip the paint from the decks, done relatively easily for Cumberland but proving difficult with Canarias. Canarias has at least 5 coats of deck paint, the original grey primer deck colour, an acrylic 'deck tan' Testors spray applied the last year I owned it, and two different tans applied since it was sold. The final tan layer is thick and is probably more than one coat. Then there's a shellac-like clear coat that gums up sandpaper quickly and is resistant to paint stripper. About 2/3 of the deck is down to the original black gelcoat after repeated applications of stripper and scraping.

    Both models were re-sheeted before I bought them but the way the sheeting was done obscured the distinctive bow 'knuckle' of the County and Canarias Class hulls. (There's a trick to sheeting the knuckle.) The bows of both models have been stripped of balsa back to the start of the knuckle and will be redone. Unfortunately I'll have to re-sheet most of the Cumberland's hull because the silkspan didn't adhere well to the balsa and peels off easily.
    Curt Stokes reported having the same problem and thought it was due to using dope that was old. I'm trying to find a source in Canada for SIG model dope and thinner vs paying the US exchange and shipping.

    I expect to finish stripping and cleaning the hulls this week, then make larger rudders, install a water channeling system (which neither model had), followed by the bilge pumps. I'll be photographing the rebuilds.
     
  2. oldsalt05

    oldsalt05 Member

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    Bob,

    Piper tells me that you maybe replacing Canarias's superstructure also, If this is true would you sell me her old superstructure. It would make building a new one easier if I had the old one as an example. I installed the deck this past weekend. Just need to sand it and start on the superstructure. Thanks, Larry
     
  3. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Hi Larry,
    That conversation was a few hours before I retrieved Canarias from a shelf in the basement, removed and inspected the superstructure. There was less damage than I thought and it can be repaired with a very small amount of body fill: some BB dings in the gelcoat and a couple of chunks shot off at corners. Nearly all of the damage is on the 01 level and none of the damage extended into the fiberglass.

    The 01 and 02 levels should be easy to build from styrene if you can get copies of the drawings I did - Stephen Mogret has them, plus the drawing I did for molding a fiberglass deck.

    Have you called Stephen and requested the trunked funnel and tower bridge? He bought the molds for both. You should also ask for 4 of the Spanish 8" turrets. The 8" turrets from the Canarias and Kent Class were different. The British turrets are the same height but longer by about 1/4", are curved at the back instead of flat, and have slightly different side and front plates. Strike Models has my molds for both turrets.

    Have you thought of building the Baleares instead of another Canarias? If Stephen makes you a funnel it will come with the curved funnel cap unique to Baleares. You'd have to cut off the funnel cap to represent the Canarias. I regret cutting it off because it's quite cool-looking.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
  4. oldsalt05

    oldsalt05 Member

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    Hey Bob,

    No problem, I didn't think you would need to completely replace the superstructure. I already have the turrets, funnel and tower bridge. It's too late as far as not cutting the top of the funnel. I would rather build Canarias anyway. Do you have contact information for Stephen? I would like to get drawings from him. I have a drawing, but it is in Russan. Ive been using pictures that I have of Canarias for my build also, just not easy figuring the right measurements from a picture.

    Thanks,
    Larry
     
  5. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    I contact Stephen via Strike Models. I'll check this weekend to see if I kept copies of the drawings I did and used to build the superstructure. If I don't find them I can give you the dimensions of everything.
     
  6. oldsalt05

    oldsalt05 Member

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    That would be great, thanks
     
  7. KeriMorgret

    KeriMorgret Facilitator RCWC Staff Vendor

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    It's stephen at strikemodels dot com.
     
  8. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Good news Larry: I've just found photocopies of my drawings for Canarias' superstructure.

    The copies were in a folder with sheets of measurements from the three best plans I found (by "Baker, Becker, Llanos") and from an unaccredited internet drawing, all converted to 1/144 scale.
    I used the average of measurements from the 4 drawings for the plans I drew. The dimensions between the plans usually differed by no more than 3-4 millimeters.
    (I didn't use the top view by "Llanos" which differed from the side view of the same plan by up to 20mm (~3/4") for size and location of some items; the side view was a close match to the other 3 plans.)

    I almost certainly kept a copy of the deck plan showing where everything should be installed, and where I molded the access hatch openings in the fiberglass deck. I'll look for it tomorrow evening.

    PS: Email me your postal address.
     
  9. oldsalt05

    oldsalt05 Member

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    Great news, thank you Bob. I will email my address...
     
  10. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Further info on the rebuilds of Canarias and Suffolk/Cumberland will be of the Builds forum.
     
  11. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Hi Larry,
    I found the Canarias deck plan last evening - will get it photocopied today if I can get away from work at noon. Note that it was the design I used to make the fiberglass deck with molded in hatch recesses (the hatches were made from 3mm Lexan).

    I think you could adapt the plan to a Strike models wooden deck for that hull. You could use the same hatch locations, and glue the non-hatch sections of the upper deck to the subdeck. As designed Canarias' hatches provide enough access to the interior without taking the entire upper deck off the model.
     
  12. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Larry,
    I went out during coffee break and discovered the photocopying business I've used for years has gone out of business. There's no alternative within reasonable distance of work and the others close before I get off duty or charge too much. I'll send you my drawings and contact you in future if I need copies.
     
  13. oldsalt05

    oldsalt05 Member

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    Thank you Bob, I will make copys and send them back to you.
     
  14. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    You may have seen in the build threads that after a delay of 2.5 years I got back to work on the Canarias and Suffolk/Cumberland refits. A few more days will see Canarias finished but I've decided to sell it back to Larry Dingle in SC. He'd obtained parts from Strike Models to build another Canarias but hasn't finished it and his son Ben wanted Canarias back.

    Though Canarias was my favorite non-battleship combat model and second favorite model after Warspite I've reluctantly decided to sell it. There's really no need to keep Canarias with Suffolk being rebuilt as Cumberland, Russian light cruiser Krasni Krim under construction, and plans to make a hull mold for the Frobisher Class heavy cruisers and build one as Effingham after conversion to trunked funel and 9 x 6" guns. Two of Effingham's guns were in line on the quarterdeck and can be trained out 15 degrees to port and starboard with the ends of the BB cannons less than 2" above the water.
     
  15. djranier

    djranier Well-Known Member

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    Frobisher Class heavy cruisers were a strange one, started out as a heavy, rebuilt into a light.
     
  16. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Their WWI era 7.5" guns weren't a great success. Consideration was given to installing 3 twin 8" turrets of the County Class type but the low quarterdeck limited available ammo storage for the aft turret and it was decided conversion to 6" guns would be more cost effective. The RN was going to convert Frobisher and Hawkins to 6" guns like Effingham but the start of WWII prevented it.

    They had a mean displacement of over 10,000 tons and a bulged hull based on that of HMS Furious, the WWI BC with 2 x 18" guns. The fourth ship, Vindictive, was a cadet training ship between the wars and had one boiler room and a funnel removed. She was first named HMS Cavendish and completed in 1918 as a small carrier, then converted back to a cruiser, retaining the forward hangar. Vindictive was used as a fleet repair ship in WWII so could be built as a convoy ship.

    The quarterdeck freeboard was only 15', which would put the 2 single q-deck BB cannons close to the waterline. Due to the lower stern gun placement I think the Frobishers could be more effective than a County Class, being a couple of inches shorter but still over 600' loa and like them getting the 50% larger rudder.
     
  17. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    The Canarias refit is nearing completion. On to HMS Cumberland next; hopefully the new superstructure will be finished in August and the internal systems by late October.
     

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  18. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    The Canarias refit was completed today. She looks really good - love that streamlined tower bridge. I'm reluctant to sell her again after putting so much work into the restoration but I'd rather have her being used and enjoyed than gathering dust in the basement.

    Work on HMS Cumberland will resume this weekend. I plan to get the rest of the old ca glue off the hull next week and start resheeting.

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    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  19. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Cumberland's hull is almost ready to resheet. By the time the last of the ca glue has been removed it will have taken nearly 6 hours! I'm considering an alternative to ca glue for resheeting this time. Michael's sells E6000 glue which remains flexible and according to internet info can be cleaned up with acetone. Removing it will probably be easier than ca. I'm waiting to hear opinions on E6000 compared to Weldwood adhesive and hope to resheet this week.

    The motors in Cumberland are a type more powerful than the original Mabuchi 365s and might have been required because the model was overweight. (The waterline tape was 3/8" higher than where it should have been at maximum weight.) I managed to get some 365s on ebay last year and will install a pair of those. The model will have a capsule CO2 system and a pair of Panasonic batteries lighter than the large single battery that came with it. Getting rid of the large battery and the CO2 bottle should correct the weight problem. The internal arrangement will be identical to that of Canarias when built in 1998. I have a few hundred threaded CO2 capsules so will be using those with Palmer RtB regulators in cruisers Cumberland and Krasni Krim.


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