A minimum speed is very important. If a ship is too slow, it will not be able to sail in the wind. I have seen a couple instances of ships going backwards while sailing at full steam into the wind. They were going probably 15 knots on the Big Gun speed chart, rather than the allowed 25 knot minimum speed, so it is highly unusual. Also, the type of pond you battle at determines how speed will affect a ship's combat performance. The WWCC 2005 battle season was at a much more enclosed pond than normal, and having a tight turning radius was more important than having a high top speed. At our normal pond, speed is more important, because of how open the pond is. Another note on speed: a while ago, I extrapolated the 1/96 speed chart from the ship list, and compared it to the speed chart from Big Gun, 1/72 Queens Own, and Fast Gun. 25 knots for big gun is 45.0 seconds, for Battlestations it is 45.6 seconds. 39 knots for Big Gun is 28.9 seconds, for Battlestations it is 29.2 seconds. Both are directly proportional to the Dynamic Similitude Speed (true scale speed, divide original speed by the square root of the scale), so it should be easy to extend the chart for faster or slower speeds. In fact, the 1/96 speed chart is within a second of the Big Gun speed chart for every listed speed, so you may want to stick with the Big Gun chart to have more in common between the clubs. The WWCC allows subs to be rammed, as there are plenty of instances where this happened. We also allow a 1/4" cannon to be mounted through the bottom of the hull to shoot submarines. Nobody has done this yet, because subs only come for one or two battles. There has been discussion about allowing a weighted line to be draped over a sub to prevent it from surfacing, or at least mark that it was hit by depth charges when it returns to reload. The WWCC also has a HMS Roberts that battled last year. The owner pointed out to me that the Robert's best protection is a simple optical illusion. Most skippers treat it like a standard battleship with relatively flat sides that extend well above the waterline. The Roberts has huge torpedo bulges and very little freeboard. In order to hit it, you need to aim an inch shorter than you normally would, and nobody realized this until after the season ended. Hehe, proof that there is better armor than 1/8" balsa. It was not very reliable, so it was not as deadly as the other one that was mentioned.
Everybody, I understand the reasoning for the min. speed, so yes, lets have one around 20kts. As for the speed chart I agree with Carl, lets just use the "big gun" clubs speed charts because the diff. is so minimal between the two scales. Deryk from rcnavalsupply has finished the prop struts for my Yamato and I should have them shortly. Then I can finish up the hull and start installing everything else
I guess I better get some of the "everything else" done, then As far as the rules set goes, I think the speed chart based on Dynamic Similitude is too slow, but if everyone's into that, then I'll go along. I see no compelling reason for the rules to resemble those of other clubs, as it's unlikely that other clubs will allow a 1/96 ship to play. I will absolutely oppose (for what that's worth) rules allowing one ship to intentionally ram another.
I agree with using the Big Gun one as it's readily available and barely any difference between it and the old BS one.However Tugboat did you have in mind maybe some kind of speed chart faster then Big Gun but slower then Fast Gun? I thought I heard discussion before that the fast gun speeds actually gave the ships the scale hull waves(??)but according to formula Big Gun speeds are actual scale speeds. As far as ramming, I think everybody would be opposed to it. However with ramming subs it's a different story.I think it's a huge advantage to only have a 1" high penetrable strip down either side. and ramming would equal that out.
Also I know everybody says submarines are so hard to build etc... well a builder up here, Bob Pottle has built a 1/144 I-400 with ballast system and 50 round gun.It can actually dive and resurface.There was a video around on an old NABS site showing it sitting on the surface,diving,then surfacing again. So if it can be done that well in 1/144,it can be done in 1/96.Granted he has been around a few years so has lots of experience building combat boats(quite a few of them small lightweight class 1-2).
I have a counterproposal. Destroyers, DE's, and Convoy ships can ram subs, and submarines can ram those surface ships. I found no reports that anything bigger than a destroyer rammed a sub. Given that an American sub rammed a Japanese patrol boat during WW2, it should be kosher for it to go both ways, ja? http://www.ussnautilus.org/undersea/gilmore.html I'm looking forward to building Growler and ordering all ahead flank.
Whoa, here's a little clarification on the "subs can ram" rule in the WWCC. Submarines are allowed to "ram" the target, by bumping into the target to press a firing button on the bow of the sub. The sub is NOT allowed to do any damage by the ram itself, only by the action of the torpedo cannons firing from the bow. At Big-Gun speeds, most collisions are harmless. Even the WWI dreadnoughts that were designed to ram are too slow to inflict damage on a target, so most bumps, even T-bones, simply push the victim around. Higher-speed ships like light cruisers and destroyers occasionally inflict damage, but those ships mostly have a pointed "atlantic" bow, which only damages above the waterline so the victim survives long enough to fix the damage. I can only think of two instances since I joined the WWCC where a ship was damaged by a collision, and in both cases the victim was in no danger of sinking. I would caution against allowing only specific classes getting to ram submarines, because that adds additional complexity to the rules. I can understand the desire for historical accuracy (note: HMT Olympic, sister of Titanic and Britannic, rammed and sank U-103), but if the rules get too convoluted it becomes impossible to understand. This year I am writing several rule proposals for my club to vote on, that are designed solely to simplify the rulebook without changing current game balance or playing styles. I said that the big gun chart is directly proportional to dynamic similitude speed (DSS), and I should have clarified that a bit by saying that there is a linear relationship between the two. The Big Gun speed chart is 63% of DSS in 1:144, the original Battlestations is 51% of DSS in 1:96, and the Queens Own is 41% of DSS for 1:72 (QO are a couple seconds slower than big gun, but still proportional). The Fast Gun chart ranges from 100% to 80% of DSS but is NOT directly proportional. Model warships are allowed to go at the fastest speed they ever achieved, and in many cases (not all) they were unable to achieve this speed during wartime. Also, most of the time, ships don't sail at top speed in order to achieve better efficiency, range, and reduce wear on components. This means that the fastest speed a model ship is allowed to go looks appropriate for the more common speeds that a ship will travel. Thus, HMS Warspite steaming at 25kts big gun looks appropriate for a stately 16kts DSS. Note: I have received comments on my Youtube videos saying that our big gun ships look TOO FAST.
HMS Dreadnought rammed and sank a U-29 during WWI. But I don't think ramming should be allowed. The pointy end of a ship can do a lot of damage - possibly even crack or break a rib. A 1/96 scale ship will be carrying more mass too.....
Carl, did I totally misunderstand your comment about allowing subs to be rammed? Good point, Robert, I forgot that one.
I should have clarified my statement. In the WWCC, submarines are allowed to contact an enemy ship to fire their torpedoes using a button mounted in the bow, but only the torpedoes are allowed to cause damage, not the ram (recently some members became concerned that subs were causing more damage through the ram than the torpedoes, but there is no evidence to support this assertion). All ships are allowed to ram a submarine and damage the hull. Tugboat, you suggested limiting the classes of ships that can ram subs to destroyers and smaller. In my opinion this is unnecessarily complex, not entirely historically accurate, and will prevent heavy ships from performing ASW if no smaller ships are around. But, you don't know for sure until someone builds a sub and battles it. Rob, I suggested only ramming subs as ASW and subs ramming to fire. When used for ASW, ramming requires no modification to ships (all ships have a bow and can provide their own propulsion) and is mostly not damaging. It is very rare that a ship will actually T-bone a sub. More common is an oblique hit and/or simply driving over the slower sub to force it under and prevent it from making attacks. You have a good point that ships will be bigger in 1/96 and will have more mass. You don't know how damaging they will be until you do a test. In the mean time, do you have any other ideas for ASW that are relatively easy to implement? The WWCC has been considering draping a weighted line over a sub as an experimental weapon to simulate a depth charge attack, though all designs should also include a float to mark where in Davey Jones Locker the unfortunate victim is.
My major objection to your post was ramming for ASW. Subs will not be that big a factor in the game for it to be necessary. As it is, we don't even have any building, yet. If it becomes an issue later, I am all for changing the rules, but right now, I think ramming for anyone should be a no-no. (my proposal earlier was a poor attempt at tongue in cheek humor). My suggestion for ASW is to allow "Depth Charges" in a similar manner as mines... Like a pair of floats with some lines dropping between them or somesuch.
You're right. You don't have to worry about it until someone starts building a submarine, and it sounds like you have some ideas already.
As one of the fans of old ships I like the 20 knot minimum speed. If/when I get around to building one I shall praise that speed as fast compared to the 18 knots I should be going. Still my interest is armored cruisers and most of them could exceed 20 knots anyway. Pax, A.
