Damage Control question / challenge

Discussion in 'MWC (defunct)' started by irnuke, Mar 15, 2014.

  1. irnuke

    irnuke -->> C T D <<--

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    I haven't been active in the hobby in the past few years (heck, the past 10). One thing that concerns me is the "super-pump" and dual pump ships apparently now common in the club. When I was active in Florida, Don Cole was running one of the 1st "Stinger" pumps in his Alabama. Now, Don is an excellent and very aggressive Captain (which could also be a factor), but I don't remember EVER seeing him sink. So here's my question / challenge:
    Entirely remove one window's-worth of balsa from the bow of your boat. Combat load it with a full load of CO2 & bb's. Disable or turn off your pump and measure how long the ship takes to sink.
    Now refloat, enable your pump, and repeat.
    Some boats out there may never sink with their pump(s) running in this scenario. So for those, repeat the experiment while driving at full throttle.
    Post your results to this thread. I'd like some hard data on modern DC.
     
  2. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    Jeff Lide ran two Titan 12T (fairly sure about that) pumps at MWC Nats 2010, he traded haymakers with Tyler in Bob's Warspite and Jeff sunk shortly after from a blown panel at midship.

    If you have a good hull skin then you could use a standard 550 motor with moderate damage and stay afloat. I have seen plenty of ships with Super-Pumps (I call it a Titan12T and tapered outlet, what do you call a super pump) sink regularly. It suggests to me its not so much the pump in itself but the quality of the damage.

    As in the case with Jeff in 2010, Tyler got a great grouping and two pumps were not enough to handle the damage. I ran a Titan 12t and sunk in the past as well, in fact the first time I ran two pumps I nearly sank.. I was 1/8 inch from going decks awash at the Brouhaha in 2012 with 40+ bellows in the ship.

    I am not sure of the goal of your survey but if the point is super-pumps are keeping boats from sinking.. well they are supposed to BUT its a combination of factors. The simple addition of a 'super-pump' will help you take more damage but it will not prevent you from sinking. That is a fact.

    The one thing that helped my damage control the most was learning and improving my balsa selection. It also cost more as I had to buy more sheets of balsa in order to have some choices in selecting my 'NATS Balsa'. Learning better techniques for sheeting helped as well.... and for me the balsa and sheeting had far more impact on my survivability than just having a fast pump.

    As far as what I have seen of Don at battles, his experience allows him to maneuver out of harms way and take less damage and/or reduce the quality of damage he takes. His Iron Duke is hard to hit as well .. it makes a great combination. He could probably use a standard pump motor and get away with it, he is that good.

    If I have time on Monday at the Brouhaha I will try it out.. no promises.
     
  3. irnuke

    irnuke -->> C T D <<--

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    I would appreciate it. The goal of the survey is to see how the technology changes (super pumps / twin pump designs) have changed the sink dynamic I remember. If a ship with a 3" window missing sinks in 75 seconds with no pump, but takes 10+ minutes with, that tells me something very different than if the times are 75 seconds and 3 minutes.
    Keep in mind that my boats are as "old-skool" as I am. If I have zero chance of being competitive today, I'll either have to invest in new tech or stay in the kiddie pool. Alternatively, and depending on what kind of data this survey collects, I could use this data to make a rule proposal down the road (idea of having gpm limits).
     
  4. Bob

    Bob Well-Known Member

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    Tyler wrote a very good article in tf144 a year or two ago on damage take and sinks. The conclusion was that ships stil sink with about the same amount of damage. Find it on the web it's a good read.
    The two pumps are mostly used so a ship can suck up stern guns without sinking. In the old days if a nagato took 70-80 aboves she could not run without sinking. NCs killed them pretty easy. Now a Nagato can take 100+ aboves and still run. Jeff just chases trips until they are empty and the captain gets bored and fits with sidemount. An NC loses that game every time.
    A GPM rule would be hard to pass. Think of the added testing. Some captain would have to have their pump set up right at the edge. When some one almost sinks the complaining about his pump putting out too much water begins. I'm fine with a GPM rule in theory but I fear the problems it would cause.
     
  5. jch72

    jch72 Active Member

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    I agree with Johhny, in Ring of death 2013, I removed the outlet restrictor from my pump, later testing showed the pump output through the 1/4" hose to be 5.25 gpm. Jeff took me out with 2 quarter sized rams. Quality of holes matters MUCH more than peak pump output. A bb hole ful of splinters or a flap of silkspan dribbles water, a clean hole lets in a stream. The guys that collect 60 belows and survive (always barely) just have excellent hull skins that take tiny, splinter filled holes. Mastery of the art of hull skinning and good water channeling matters more. Don Cole always has a good hull skin. That said, Ming the Mercilless can hook you up with a very reliable super pump.

    Ron Hunt
     
  6. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    To expand a bit further.. I used to get frustrated about Jeff.. until I learned to shoot better... Im not saying Im a crack shot yet but I can do some damage.

    The turning point for me was when Jeff, his son Mark, and I did a stand-off at a local battle. The game was that Mark and I put our bows into shore and Jeff put his stern into shore. You can use your pump but you are not supposed to move your ship. The result was a video call Mortal Warship Combat on the Mwci channel. The ships took a ton of damage as we were able to more precisely place out shots. In the end we determined that all 3 ships would have sank as a result of the damage we took. Jeff took 2 75 round haymakers with an undetermined accuracy.. Mark and I each took a side-mount.. I think I took the 75 rounder. It taught us all that most any ship will sink if you take a full magazine of well placed ammo. I blew 1 and 1/2 panels on his ship and loved watching the pump kick off in response to damage. There was one more result of that battle... my last with one pump though.... Jeff has not specifically sought me out since then... and now I seek out Jeff when I can....

    I don't think we should limit GPM to compensate for lack of skill or accuracy (assuming that is a reason for complaints). Some folks practice and put time into the hobby and others don't.. that has always been the way. I wouldn't want to have to 'dumb' down my ship so that a guy that sheets his boat every 2 years and attends 1 battle per year.. just so they can sink me easily. The guys that put in the most time and effort will become the dominators..... and that will never change.

    I wasn't competitive but still went to all the toughest battles I could find.. and soaked up any knowledge that was passed. My 'shooting philosophy' if you want to call it that is based on major input from 3 folks that are well respected in the hobby.. and it made a difference. One day I may pay them back... in zinc.....

    And 'Other Jeff' :) I promise if you make the rounds to the Tangler, Brouhaha, Nats, or a battle with the Au brothers.. you will learn the hard way but they guys will help you out with solid advice. Contrary to belief.. all the tough guys want a challenge on the pond.. not to beat up on rookies or returning battlers.. but you take what you can get right! ;)

    Johnny