Really, but Kevin is using them on his boats. No one says anything Marty. I really like Kevin, and I'm just using his as a example. Rick K uses drag disks on his Scheer, along with props, I told him this Sunday that its really not legal under the rules, and he was surprised that no one has even said anything to him, in fact most the old MWC people do, I don't think anyone has ever said anything about it actually. As long as your reverse speed, using hinged drag disks does not exceed the forward speed then they would be legal under the rules we use now, nothing bands them. Make them Sloped, and hinged, and it should be able to run a 100 ft course in reverse. And as long as they were not faster, explain why they would not be legal? When Kevin, posted his picture of the sloped drag disks, I knew what he was doing and asked him. Some felt they were legal, others did not. He stated that as long as its only around 15% or so, he thought it would be legal. Not sure how he came up with that number. I see why he wants to do it, and told him I thought it was legal also. Since the rules do not cover sloped drag disks. Then others stated they were going to add them to their boats. I'm going to add sloped, hinged myself. Will keep the stern up, and increase the reverse speed. With the ESC's we are now using, with the reduced cost, drag disks are really no longer needed, so lets follow the rules till they are changed. I forgot to add, I like Marty also, lol. Even Steve.
That won't get rid of disks...if that's what you're after. If we say that the rule only allows drag props I'll just start using these. It's a prop but in the same token produces the same amount of drag as a disk. Leaving the rule as it is won't change anything. So. either we can say that everybody has to put "propy looking things" on their shafts, or we can change the rule and allow drag disks. Your choice.
Your choice really, if you want to use that. I have no problem with it. If they decide to allow drag disks, again what you show would still be fine right? And the sloped, hinged, whatever you want. Size does not matter either at Carl says. I going to try large hinged, drag disks myself, 3 inch in size, maybe larger, on my new Bismarck. Long as the reverse speed does not exceed the forward speed, a ESC in it to take care of that. Got a 620kv inrunner that will do 2 horsepower, geared down 2.5:1, so equivalent to a 5 horsepower motor in the boat. I don't think it will matter much what sized drag disks they are, more worried about them getting torn off the boat with the thrust of the 2.5 inch prop. I did use 3 mm thick (11 mm OD, 8 mm, ID) stuffing tube to handle the torque. Just waiting to finish it, and how the voting on the guns go, if they lose dual's or not.
No, under my rule change (if I write it up) you would be limited to a flat, uniform thickness disk no larger than the main drive prop(s). It's stupid simple and effective.
No, they don't. It allows the current 5 voting members to make a decision as to what the ruling on the disagreement is. If you don't like the way things work in the IRC, maybe you should try another club that will do things your way.
How is 5C3 not clear on allowing the board to make interpretations? I am with Trey.. let the board rule on it. Otherwise proposal a rule.
Have to agree with Trey! 3. Provide necessary interpretations of Club Rules in the event of a disagreement between two or more interested members. All Rule interpretations by the Executive Board shall be officially recorded and placed on the Club’s web site for viewing by the members. Sounds to me we have a "disagreement between two or more interested members" whether a drag disk is equal in usage to a drag prop. In historic usage drag disks have been around a long time, so I think they should be considered legal as long as they are a simple disk (fender washer type). Folding or mechanically modifying shape drag (disks?) are not in the spirit of the rule and should be illegal. Mounting props or disks (sic.) on the un-powered shafts is always legal, mounting extra drag devises on the powered shafts is not much different from mounting extra drag devices (pieces of rug, horizontal sticks, etc.) to the bottom of the boat which I have seen and was deemed illegal and removed. IMHO Marty
I have a rule proposal drafted, please let me know if you are interested in cosigning/reviewing and I will send you a copy
No, maybe you should follow the rules is all. The rule is clear. You are not doing a interpretation, you are changing the rule which is not allowed. No wonder the club is so small. when someone does not agree with Trey, he insults you, tells you to leave, calls you a cheat, and that your not a gentleman. Does not matter they have been in usage for a long time, if they have been wrongly used. Does that make it right? How many years have to go by to make it so?
1. You being insulted because I said you are a rules lawyer is not my problem, it is yours. 2. You did cheat, you had a stringer nearly a 1/4" out of scale and instead of saying "oops, let me fix it" you tried to defend it. 3. You are not a gentleman. You are at the center of almost every conflict within the club. 4. I did not tell you to leave. I said if you don't like it, you are welcome to leave. I promise, I won't shed a single tear.
It was only 1/8 inch out of scale, and you complained about me shaving the hull, get the story straight. So your props, shaft, and rudders are within 1/8 inch of scale, which I doubt. All I try to do is get you to follow the rules, and I'm not a gentleman? Really, grow up please.
I found this image by searching "Bismarck Armor Belt". This is actually from the Tirpitz, but that belt would be in the same place due to standing height of the internal decks. In the image below you can see the armor belt STARTS 2.45m, or approximately 7.5 ft from the deck rim. 7.5 x 12 = 90 inches Let's put that into scale.. 90/144 = .625 in Now subtract the 3/8" deckrim .625-.375 = .25 or 1/4 inches. YOUR stringer was on the edge of the deckrim to make it a toal of 5/8" thick. It was 1/4 inch out. Nice try though. I used 7.5 for simple math, but if we use the actual 2.45 meters the scale location is that the stringer should start .2375 in from the bottom edge of the deckrim. While, i wasn't exactly on with my 1/4 inch estimate, i was much closer than your 1/8 inch. See, this is what actually happened. The original hull was cast with the armor belt scale from the top, but the depth of the hull was about 1/4 in off. You cut that 1/4 inch off the top and called it good, but did not take the time to move the stringer. I am uncertain if your initial intent was to deceive, and normally i would say it probably wasn't. But when someone so fervently denies and twists the truth, it leans toward the opposite. You had the opportunity to say "Oops, I should have fixed that." but instead you chose to distort the truth and deny that there was a problem at all. Your story has changed numerous times and I am confident nobody is buying it. About my boat, Right now, drag disks are commonly accepted. I will continue to use them until either : a. they are no longer commonly acceped b. the rules are changed to specifically outlaw them c. the E-board rules that they are not acceptable. You can challenge my boat all you want. I have nothing to hide from anyone.
And since we can be 1/8 inch tolerance either way from scale, that means I was 1/8 inch, try again. But hey that is a nice picture. At least your picture proves I did not cheat like Carl, Rob, Tom, and you claimed. Do the math, equals 15 meters just like I said. 4.1 inches. Exactly what the boat was, so when you accuse me of cheating by shaving my hull down, when it meets specs, who was wrong? But thanks for proving me right. That's exactly what I said at Nats. Tom, as I said put his boat next to mine, and said no way, it has to me higher, he was not looking at the armour belt. At the dinner Carl said I don't care what you say, when I said it was 15 meters, he would not listen, just make a speculation, not backing it up with facts. I suppose Rob was using his Bismarck as his example, I would suspect that the hull is not right from the builder. When I look at his, it appears to sit very high out of the water, but it may just be battled at a lighter weight. Again that's what I said at Nats, I stated I made it in the 19 days prior to Nats, and actually finished it that Saturday evening. And I was the one that said the Armour belt was a little high, when they all questioned the height. You always add your actuation's, yet don't know what you are talking about. When did I deny or twist the truth, I always said it was 15 meters, you all denied that, not me. Since it was only 1/8 inch out of spec as the hull is built with allowed tolerance, and even if I did move it down 1/8 inch, it would of had less penetrable area if I did that, than it was suppose to have. Since a BB will not go through a 1/8 inch hole. As it was, it had the required penetrable area, if the belt was against the sub-deck, or located 1/4 inch down, no difference. And again just because your drag disks are acceptable, does not mean that that they are allowed by the rules. Just as Marty said, we have been using them for a long time, again does not make it right.
There is no 1/8" allowance on where the lip of the stringer is located. The allowance on the location of the lip of the stringer is about 0, maybe 1/32" based on reasonable measuring accuracy. I mentioned 1/8" about 10 pages of comments before, but that was just for plausible argument sake, not legality. The builder has the liberty of deciding how much of the 1/8" thickness is above and below the lip, so you could get to 1/8" from center that way as a maximum, but a field goal kick that is wide right doesn't count if it misses by 6 inches or 6ft. Lets compare stringers to stringers. Would you not question a boat that has the stringer clearly not in the right location, and in a location that gives that boat an advantage compared to if the stringer was in the scale location? What about a casement deck, that is usually about 5/8" tall, say the builder decided that making it 1/2" tall was a better idea so now the whole set of casement guns is impenetrable (3/8" deck rim, 1/8" gap (that doesn't let bbs pass), then 1/8" casement deck), would you say that that was legal according to the rules? What rule change would have to occur for you to think that your stringer placement was illegal? "Stringers shall be in there scale location"? Taken without context, I understand your viewpoints about the legality of certain common practices with respect to the rule, such as drag disks. But maybe in this club, drag prop has always equaled drag disk or prop. I think that if you applied a 100% strict compliance with build rules, you could find something 'illegal' on every ship at a battle. Then we have no battle. In your shot about skegs you didn't bring up bilge keels (which is in the same clause). How many ships don't have bilge keels that should? Should every deviation be treated equally, regardless of the impact? Should the rules be clear and represent common practices that are accepted? Absolutely. Should there be rule changes to fix issues we see in the rules as they come up? Yup. I've authored 5ish and I'm working on the drag props. But I know that I plan to battle before any rule changes can take effect, so we have to apply some common sense here. Dave you have said that other members from your area don't want to go to Nats because of rule arguments. How are these rule arguments coming about/getting so heated? This whole thing started with a pretty simple question, to which the answer was 'no,' but now we have 10 pages of comments that really aren't representative of how this club operates at the vast majority of battles. This could have been as simple as 'hey, we should probably add the words 'drag disc' to the rule, but disks are fine for this year.' Bringing it back to my comment 10 pages ago, being reasonable is not that hard. I think the club would benefit if we all took that approach.
In my opinion, Trey and Dave need to go to neutral corners and cool out. No need for such heated discussions. especially when we are trouncing back and forth over old ground. We play with toy boats. IMHO Marty
