Froggy Battlewagons

Discussion in 'Ship Comparison' started by GeekSpeed, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. GeekSpeed

    GeekSpeed Active Member

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    Hi gang.

    I recently completed scratch building my FNS Foch cruiser. She is really a great boat and I am already planning out the next ship. I want to do a battlewagon of some kind, but I am torn as to what to do. I am kind of limited for size, so I am looking at class 4 (old MWC rules) boats. This will be a scratch build, so I can basically do whatever I can get plans for. That being said, I have LOTS of good plans for French ships. Here is what I am considering:

    Courbet class
    Dunkerque class
    Conte di Cavour class (not French, obviously)

    I am kind of leaning toward Dunkerque, but I have no idea why. I get that she might not be the most effective. The question is, is she THAT bad? We don't have a lot of fast capital ships in my club (SCRAP), so that might actually be a good advantage. Could I run her as a cruiser killer or hit-and-run style boat? I could run a sidemount on each side (obviously) and a single stern gun. What do those of greater experience think about that idea? Bear in mind she gets the 50% rudder size increase because of her length.

    What are the thoughts on Colbert? Slow, but she would have some good hard area and has an oversize rudder (similar to Bretagne). Would she be dogmeat in a scrum?

    Finally, what are the thoughts on Conte di Cavour/Andrea Doria? Again, they get extra rudder because of the dual in-line. Speed is OK, but there is no hard area to speak of. Those of you who have run them, how do the turn/handle?

    Thanks as always!
     
  2. SteveT44

    SteveT44 Well-Known Member

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    Courbet, the aft two turrets sidemounts and the two mid wing turrets pointed aft.
     
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  3. Renodemona

    Renodemona Well-Known Member

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    Building an Italian (Caio Dulio, same hull as Conte) so will let you know. It won't turn anything better than ok and has no stringers or anything. That said, it is a gorgeous ship and turrets are roomy. Lots of internal space for stuff and enough weight to put as much power as you could ever want in it.
    Courbet would be ok. Slow, but lots of hard area. I think there is a laser kit for it now at strike which makes building a bit faster.
    Dunkerque has all its sidemounts up front. I'd be pretty wary of that as bow sidemounts lose vs stern sidemounts, which can be super easy to forget in a first sidemount ship. Very pretty though.
    Mostly pick the one you want and make it reliable. Reliability can trump outright performance most days.
    Most of the sidemount SCRAP ships are 26 or 28 seconds so speed could help you, but Prado has such a small battling area sometimes it might not matter.
     
  4. GregMcFadden

    GregMcFadden Facilitator RCWC Staff

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    while I am biased a bit I can say that the Provence (Bretagne class) is a nasty little ship with lots of stringers and legal solid area. Decent cannon placement in the aft two turrets.
     
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  5. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

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    No photos? ;)
     
  6. mike5334

    mike5334 Well-Known Member

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    Like the Richelieu, a Dunkerque should be battled as a hit and run, i.e. swoop in on slower or stopped ships and rake with sidemounts while passing by. This is especially effective in formats using scaled speeds such as Treaty and Big Gun since the French battleships favored speed over protection.
     
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  7. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    Dunkerque has high free board, side mounts only in the bow, and a single rudder. All bad things for this hobby.

    Bretagne is a nasty little boat.
     
  8. Rayne Single

    Rayne Single Admiral (Supporter)

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    i run a dunkerque for big gun and i love it. but that is my personal choice. has quad forwards 7/32 and same pump rate as its bigger brother richelieu. sligh;ty shorter but same nice canoe shape hull. fast enough at 29.5 and turns well.
     
  9. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    Big gun is a different animal. Renodemona is building for fast gun. Dunkerque is a 4 unit boat (3 cannons) The aft cannon would have to be located fairly high due to location of aft secondary guns.
    f. Ships in Class 4 and above which had their actual main armament all located forward of their superstructures may use an aft secondary battery to mount a single stern cannon.
    Due to the high free board the bow cannons are also mounted high allowing for ALL aft sidemounts and most bow sidemounts to come in under its guns. Any captain who is decent with aft cannons will eat it for lunch.

    Bretagne is a single rudder boat, but the rudder is HUGE.
     
  10. GeekSpeed

    GeekSpeed Active Member

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    The rudder for Courbet looks pretty similar to Bretagne. I'll have to see if I can figure out a way to do the dang thing.

    Thanks.
     
  11. GregMcFadden

    GregMcFadden Facilitator RCWC Staff

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    have you got the french archive plans? That is what I built the Provence off of. lots of good info on all the bretagne class ships
     
  12. absolutek

    absolutek -->> C T D <<--

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    They are almost identical hulls, the difference mainly being the casement positions.
     
  13. GregMcFadden

    GregMcFadden Facilitator RCWC Staff

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    If they are that close, take a look, my provence wood kit is sold by strike now (shameless plug) if you feel like repurposing it.
     
  14. Rayne Single

    Rayne Single Admiral (Supporter)

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    loved the french warship archive plans. that was what my dunkerque was built off. much nicer boat when not made from goff plans.
     
  15. froggyfrenchman

    froggyfrenchman Well-Known Member

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    Any decisions made on this project?
    In my opinion..
    The Courbet and Provence class would be somewhat similar.
    The hulls were almost the same, except as noted above, for the location of the casements.
    Both had huge rudders. The turret locations were quite different. And one may be easier to set up to your
    battling style.
    I am not sure that anyone in the hobby has ever seen a Courbet class battleship. I have never heard of anyone battling one.
    And I know of only one Bretagne ever being battled. And that one was on the water for the first battles just recently. It looks
    very promising.
    I only know of one captain to battle a Dunkerque in fast-gun. It seems to have done pretty well. But the key is to have it set up to
    fit your battling style. And it has to be absolutely reliable.
    Someone mentioned that it had everything bad going for it in fast-gun.
    But one must keep in mind, that as also mentioned above, reliability comes into play, as well as having a ship that fits your battling style.
    And just as important is that not all battlefields are the same. It can also depend on what ships are being battled in your local club. And the teams.
    The Italian falls somewhere in between.
    It is faster than the two small Frenchies. But slower than the Dunkerque.
    I think the turning in all of these cases will be what it is.
    But you don't see a lot of any of these ships on the water in fast-gun. So putting any one of them out there would be great.
    And they can all (for the most part) battle on either team. Which can help keep the teams fairly even on a local level.

    So to make a long story a little longer..
    My advice is to build the one that you want to build. Make it as reliable as you possibly can. And if you can't set it up and battle it to your battling style, then you will have to change your battling style to fit the ship.
    It's going to be your ship. So pick the one that excites you most, and have fun building and battling it.
    Mikey
     
  16. GregMcFadden

    GregMcFadden Facilitator RCWC Staff

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    I am really enjoying the Provence (Bretagne class). I like 2/3 of my turret layout. the aft two are nasty. the midships weird sidemount is less so and I may move it to a bow sidemount sometime. right now it is really hard to aim because when the ship rocks, POI moves so much. it would actually be better as a long range side mount as one would be away from the rocking. It really fits my requirements as it both battles well and fits in a standard bathtub for fitting and sink testing, making it much easier to get the ship working properly prior to battling.
     
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  17. GeekSpeed

    GeekSpeed Active Member

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    Hi all.

    I have, unfortunately, not made much progress. lol. I am so bad at choosing things. Anyway, I was looking at a Courbet, but the amount of stringers and odd contours are kind of scary. I also decided that the Dunkerque is actually just too big for my storage and transport capabilities. Thus, I printed and cut out rib templates for a Conte di Cavour because that is the easy way to go. I still haven't decided if I want to do it yet. The pond we battle is rather narrow near the shore and then gets larger the further you go out. The shore part is hemmed in by a lot of reeds. So we tend to have battlewagons duking it out close to the land and the cruisers hang out further into the pond and snipe. The Conte di Cavour class seems to be a decent general-purpose ship, but I am actually wondering how good it would be in my area. It will not turn with the slower twin-rudder battlewagons near shore and it is not fast enough to hunt down cruisers.

    Hmmm.... Maybe I will take another look at Courbet afterall. Regardless, whatever I choose I will start a build thread to document.

    Thanks for all of the input, guys.
     
  18. Renodemona

    Renodemona Well-Known Member

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    I'll bring my Dulio down in October. I don't think it'll be battling, but at least it will give you an idea of how it should perform.