"Growing" the Sport

Discussion in 'General' started by mike5334, Mar 5, 2008.

  1. mike5334

    mike5334 Well-Known Member

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    Recently, myself and a few of the Treaty guys have been discussing growth of model warship combat, I.E. getting more people into the sport. It's such a good topic that it needs everyone's input, no matter what rule set.

    I think we all agreed that there were two main things that makes it hard for a person to get started in model warship combat:
    1) initial cost
    2) lack of building skills and/or time to build
    So to make it easier to draw more new captains into the sport, we would have to address those two main issues.

    Let me give an example here. The rc model aircraft hobby has really taken off (bad pun!) within the past few years due to low cost aircraft that are Almost Ready to Fly (ARF). Someone with no flying expirience can walk into a hobby shop or even Walmart and pick up an electric RC airplane for around $120. The new flyer assembles the plane (not build, assemble as in putting pieces together), charges the battery, and takes it to the park a few hours later to fly. The planes are relatively easy to fly, so some succeed and some fail.
    The ones that fail to fly or get frustrated, give up. They toss the plane away and is only out of $100 for thier efforts.
    The ones that like the sport and learn to fly decide they want something better than that cheap plane, so they go to the hobby shop and get something more expensive. These are the flyers that will stay in the hobby for years to come.

    This is what we need in the model warship world to expand the hobby. A low cost ship that is nearly ready to float with some assembly. The ship doesn't have to be a battleship ... a simply cruiser may work well. It would have to be easy to assemble and reliable. And most of all, it would probably have to cost no more than $200...lower the better.

    I have a few ideas on Almost Ready to Float ships, but I want to hear what the rest of you think about main point: getting more people into our hobby.
     
  2. froggyfrenchman

    froggyfrenchman Well-Known Member

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    I have been toying with the thought of producing a simple wooden hull, and then selling it as either a kit, or even fully assembled.
    I love the French ships, but I have come to the conclusion that it would need to be either U.S., German, or something like that.
    I have a set of plans for the Omaha class light cruisers, and although they are U.S., and fairly well know, they have a really small (thin) bow, and stern.
    Which would mean that they wouldn't have a lot of room, and the rudder would be somewhat hard to install.
    So although I really like that boat, I have been looking for something else.
    Anyhow. My thought was that if we could get a few builders together, and have one build hulls, one build cannons, and so on, we could quite possibly have a few kits, or even ready-to-run boats available.
    They could be used for club loaner boats until someone decides to purchase them.
    They should be larger than a destroyer, and perhaps 4 units or less. I was thinking cruisers. Perhaps even a pre-dreadnaught.
    Mikey
     
  3. Mark

    Mark Active Member

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    I would consider making wood hull "kits", but the only way to make it work out so the kits are uniform/same, would need to be done by an automated machine (like the craftsman compu-carve or some other form of mass-producing cutting devise). there is still the cost of material, time spent and were+tear on equipment to factor in. in short a fiberglass hull would be cheaper, although in my opinion not better.
     
  4. klibben

    klibben Member

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    Sounds like a great idea!

    I'm not much of a builder - at least in the hull section - but if you need any help with anything let me know!
     
  5. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    I've been talking with Greg and Brian K, about this for quite a while.

    Estimate: Assuming it's something that can be driven direct drive, with one prop, 2.5 units.
    Gas regulator $35
    3.5oz bottle $55 (I know that bottles can be had cheaper, but the ones I've seen lack a valve on them*)
    2 MAV-2 valves $13.38
    Futaba 4YF radio set $120
    -comes with 4 servos
    400 Motor $4
    .5 unit pump $27.50
    4AH 7.2v battery (2) $63.95 (Actually 2x 7.2V, 4.2AH NIMH with charger)
    3 microswitches $3
    1 pair props $7.5 (assumes one of a $15 pair be used on another ship of the same type)
    1 drive shaft/st.tube $3

    This comes out to $332.33... Not counting a hull, or many many other things (wood for decks and caprail, rudder, mounts for servos, watertight box/waterproofing, cannons, wiring, pump)

    What we had been talking about was doing it in steps... for example:
    Stage 1 Get hull, subdeck, and deck, molded drop-in water channeling and instruction manual.
    Stage 2 Get propshafts, props, rudder, rudder servo mount and linkage, gearbox, motor, and unis.
    Stage 3 Get pump, wiring harness, and watertight box kit.

    etc, etc... (some stages could be broken into a couple smaller ones)

    Done kind of as a pay-as-you-go so that 1)It isn't one big expense all at once and 2) You're getting a coherent package. We were hoping to get it all in under $400 for a 3 unit HMS Kent (or equivalent) heavy cruiser. Of course, the Kent runs a 1 unit pump, and I'd want to use 1 MAV-2 to fire 2 MAV-3's for dual sterns, vice 2 singles in the above example. The FM radio isn't optimal, but one could always pay a little more and buy a Spektrum or something nice.

    * If anyone knows of an inexpensive source for new 3.5oz bottles with valves on them, let me know 'cause I need another one!
     
  6. PreDread

    PreDread Active Member

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    My personal opinion is this...

    An Almost Ready to Fight ship is a bad idea. It would definately bring in new members, but what kind of new members would it bring? Sure it will bring some new members that will stay, but what about all the other yahoos?

    I'll give a little example from my other hobby, which is collecting surplus and antique military rifles. Due to their low cost and availibility... I see way too many dumb 18 year kids at the range who just plunked down $100 on something they know absolutely nothing about, and haven't a clue how to properly or safely operate it. They then proceed to run their mouths, scare the crap out of everybody else there until somebody ( usually quite sternly ) teaches them how to be safe and smart. They then get upset when their new gun isn't the best shooter on the line, blame it for their failure, go home and never return....

    Not the best analogy but I'm sure you guys get my point. Start selling ARF ships and people like that will show up at your ponds and expect to battle... without bothering to learn the rules, even attempt to learn a little of the history. They will expect to blast your ships out of the water and go home a hero, and when that doesn't happen, the ship will go in the closet and you'll never see them again...

    Or they might stay around long enough to gripe about the rules and generally ruin everybody else's fun for a while.

    The hobby has always required some basic mechanical and woodworking skills... even somebody that buys an ARF will still need to learn how to re-sheet a hull and tune and tweak things.

    I think the best approach is the good old fashioned way. Get the word out about your club on the net, invite people to come and watch, help new members build ships. The club will be much more tight-knit if there is a sense of fellowship to go along with friendly competition.
     
  7. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    Predread is right about attracting the wrong sorts of people. I personally view the price barrier as an initial filter, to weed out the absolute lowest "undesirables" who may think that firecrackers or .22 bullets are an "improvement" that they just have to implement, or expect to sink everyone else's ships with a minimum of effort on their part.

    I think that the best way to expand the hobby is not to reduce price, but to extend more help to new members. Require each new member to build their own ship. But make sure you're there beside them, showing them how it's supposed to be done, providing advice and support the whole way. That way they learn the necessary skills quickly and easily, and have an in-depth understanding of their own ship. Tugboat idea to put together a semi-kit that you can easily help a rookie build and battle is wonderful. Ideally, you would have drawings for the ribs, keels, subdecks, etc for a wide range of boats, so a new member can have a wider choice of class and cost and the club doesn't get swamped with one particular type of boat.

    As an example, when I first joined the club I had no idea what I was doing. I went over to someone's garage on a saturday to learn how to hook up the battery in a ship I had borrowed. That day, I learned how to hold a screwdriver, use a pencil, and run the band saw and drill press. Then next week, I learned how to patch battle damage. The next week, I learned more hand tools and began learning basic ship construction theory. Now four years later, I am the most successful and feared captain in the club, with 17 sinks to my name. My ships are among the most modern and technologically advanced in the club, and I still learn something new every Saturday when I go to that person's garage.
     
  8. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    I did do a $25 convoy ship at Nats 06... Chris from NJ and I got a litle tipsy on hard cider, and we cut up the thin cardboard that one of the six-packs came in, and made ribs and a keel, then fiberglassed it with newspaper & thin cloth I had in my toolbox, and CA. The hull was about 10" long, and about 2" wide. A cannibalized zip-zap provided a 2-channel radio, a tiny tiny motor, gears, and the rudder servo. We used a coffee stirrer as the stuffing tube and a zip-zap drive axle as the propshaft. God only knows what it would've done if it hit the water :) But anyone wishing to get into the hobby on the cheap has my permission to emulate my "Yopparatteiru maru"* idea. Easily under $200.

    *The name means "Drunken Sea"
     
  9. SnipeHunter

    SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

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    Hehe I had forgotten about building that "boat", that was a feat of engineering and resourcefulness if I do say so myself. (which I do) Had to do something since we were stuck in FL with a tropical storm passing over.

    Personally I dont think cost in terms of dollars is what keeps people out of the hobby, it might be used as an excuse but I dont think its the underlying reason. In relation to a lot of other hobbies ours is about normal in terms of cost. I have a wargamming army thats on par in terms of cost with a boat, not to mention video games. Take an Xbox 360 or PS3 add in an extra controller and a few games and thats easily in the same price range as a new boat. What about musical instruments like a panio, guitar, or drum set, those are all rather pricey too. Or how about something like hunting thats expensive and you are limited to when and where you can hunt. My point is that its not the cost, thats a made up reason. Now im not saying that everything should be super expensive, just that as things stands now I don't think that is the real reason more people dont do this. I built my first boat in college with very limited funding and a very small set of tools but its doable and that boat served me well for 4-5 years until I had a job and was able to build another boat.

    Personally I dont think this hobby appeals to many people for a couple of reasons. First I think that a lot of people are scared off by the amount of time and work that is needed. (this is where a boat that is easier/faster to get on the water would do the most good even if the price was on par with what we currently are used to.) This hobby requires a fair number of skills that arent really that common in todays world (I doubt the average person can solder for instance). Also I think people in general arent to big into the whole work thing.

    Another thing that I think throws off a lot of the people that are willing to put in the time and effort to build a boat is the fact that we spend all this time, effort, and money to build a boat and then take it out on a lake and let other people shoot holes in it and possibly have to go get it off the bottom on the pond. People have a mental/emotional connection to thier work and something like this can be a little to violent for them. (personally for me the thought of having a boat that just sails around the lake and doesnt do anything doesnt sound fun but some people love it, to each his own) Im not sure that there is a solution to this but I do believe it is something that turns people off to the hobby.

    Another think that I think the ball is dropped on a lot is having regular meetings/battles to keep interset up and make people feel like they really are part of a group and not just someone working by themself in thier garage. There are some groups that do a great job at this, (the guys in MN, FL/GA, and the NABS group come to mind) but a lot of smaller groups don't and they remain small. Also keeping websites updated, even if its just updated once a year to post meeting and battle dates.

    As for finding new members the web is a great resource which i think we are starting to use better. You can always try flyers at hobby shops and such, at least that way it gets to people who are already interested in modeling and RC and such.

    If that doesnt work plan B is build a fleet out of six-packs and CAed fiberglass and just have single use boats since a BB can punch a hole in a single layer of fiberglass. You wouldnt even need to learn to patch, just buy a new hull!!
     
  10. JohnmCA72

    JohnmCA72 Member

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    We had a pretty active discussion in this area in the "Next Generation" forum.

    People decide how to spend their recreational funds based on a simple Cost vs. Benefit equation. The degree to which the benefits outweigh the costs determine how eager they are to participate. Not only that, but there are lots of other potential activities that compete for people's time & money. Where there are multiple choices how to spend our limited resources, we pick those that offer the greatest value to us; those whose benefit outweigh the costs by the greatest margin.

    Many of the costs are obvious, such as materials, tools, equipment, & time (to build & repair). Less obvious costs include things like how far you have to drive to get to a meeting or battle or scheduling around other activities. Benefits are the "positive" things that we get out of the experience; basically the "fun" factor. Costs are "what we have to do" to gain the benefits.

    VALUE = BENEFIT - COST

    We want VALUE to be as high as possible. Over the years that I've been involved, just about every solution proposed to try to make this happen has been to reduce COST. I submit that a more effective approach would be to increase BENEFIT. Find ways to crank up the fun quotient so far that nobody balks at all over a couple of thousand dollars just to get in! If an activity is fun enough, people will find ways to come up with the cost of entry, no matter what that might be.

    The trouble with reducing COST to near-zero, without increasing BENEFIT, is that it doesn't drive VALUE above the values of other activities that are competing for people's time. Take a given COST, BENEFIT, & the resulting VALUE: Reducing COST by 1/2, while BENEFIT stays the same, will increase VALUE somewhat. However, doubling BENEFIT for a static COST will double VALUE. This may be enough to push VALUE above the level of some other activity.

    Example using arbitrary numbers (scale to 10): If BENEFIT=4 & COST=4, then VALUE=0; hardly worth doing at all. Cut COST in 1/2, so that BENEFIT=4 & COST=2, then VALUE=2; not much of an improvement. However, if BENEFIT gets doubled to 8, with COST remaining at 4, then VALUE doubles to 4; much more likely to come out ahead of other activities vying for time & attention.

    A somewhat more "real world" example: Suppose somebody has the choice of participating in a combat warship battle on Sunday afternoon vs. sitting at home watching sports on TV. For TV, COST is negligible (you already have the TV, & you'd eat/drink anyway) & BENEFIT doesn't need to be very high to get a positive VALUE. For the warship battle, you have all the costs associated with preparing a ship, driving to & from the battle, time spent, gas, cleaning out the car so that you can pack it with ships, tools, etc. Even if somebody gets a combat warship completely free, there are plenty of other COSTs involved. For VALUE of a ship battle to exceed VALUE of watching sports on TV by enough of a margin to make it clearly the preferred activity of the two, BENEFIT for combat needs to be way, way above that of watching TV.

    I think we've proven, year in & year out, that simply reducing the cost-of-entry isn't going to do much. If it was, it would have by now, having been tried over & over again. Albert Einstein once said, "Doing the same thing over & over, expecting to get different results, is the definition of insanity." I suggest that we try to find ways to make the hobby more attractive by working the other side of the equation. Find ways to make it so much fun that people will line up, beat down our doors, & pay whatever it takes just to get in.

    JM
     
  11. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    "Also I think people in general aren't to big into the whole work thing."

    I think this is the real crux of the issue. Back in the day, modeling in and of itself was much more popular then it is today. I remember I used to be able to get simple plastic models on the toy isle in the grocery store. I even got one from a 7-11 once. Now, modeling is less popular. Most people don't even want to spend the time building the plastic ones, let alone the amount of effort needed to build one of our ships. It's that effort that I think will continue to keep most people away from the hobby.
     
  12. PreDread

    PreDread Active Member

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    Part of the issue is that everybody views RC Warship Combat differently.

    Not saying thats wrong as everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it does tend to fragment the sport/hobby...

    Some people just enjoy fast paced action... they aren't super concerned with an accurate, realistic model... they just want to battle.

    Some people enjoy building and research more than battle. They enjoy the history and go the extra mile to build a super detailed ship. These people might build an oddball ship they like, combat value is secondary.

    An ARF ship might make things worse. Some will complain it isn't powerful enough to be top dog, some will complain that it isn't detailed enough, some will complain its not the ship they want, and some will still complain that its too expensive ( "I just spent xxx dollars on this, now I have to fix it!!! ).

    As JohnmCA72 said, the key is the Cost vs. Benefit equation. Its not just about new members, its about finding new members that share your view of RC Warship Combat.
     
  13. donanton

    donanton Member

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    Even if you sold a RTR boat for $500, as long as you put bright colors and wrote XTREME and AWESOME! on it people would but it. Just not by the truckload. And not in NJ. :(

    Unless you say its for airsoft
     
  14. Anachronus

    Anachronus Well-Known Member

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    That's me pegged. Give me a pre-Washington treaty ship any time. PDN's are even better.
     
  15. PreDread

    PreDread Active Member

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    Me too! Ram bows, six funnels and turret farms forever! [}:)]
     
  16. mike5334

    mike5334 Well-Known Member

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    Very good points all. :)

    But ...

    ARF airplanes have pretty much single handedly boosted RC flying in the United States. So much so that the Academy of Model Aeronautics has recently started a new intro program geared specifically to the entry level small plane flyers. More and more flyers are showing up at flying fields with low cost aircraft. Once at the field, they learn the safety aspects and improve thier flying skills. Some will get frustrated and leave, some will like it and stay.
    Instead of cost being the deciding factor on whether a person stays or not, it's commitment (time) that decides.

    Could a low cost mass produced hull be molded out of a resin plastic? How about molded cannons? Precut/silkspanned sheeting? Preinstalled stuffing tubes/motors? Prewired power systems? Integrated fire control systems?
    I'm not talking about replacing our current hull/cannon manufacturers. Just a small reliable ship that will draw in people that want to try the sport before making the big time and money commitment. If they like it, they will move up into more complicated larger ships.

    I fully support the guys trying to make an "Almost Ready to Float" hull to sell. Although the prices are still up there, it still addresses the initial time commitment in the first post. Good going!
     
  17. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    One of the things I have noticed is that most of the people who try our sport decide to join. The way I figure, the more people who get the chance to try out the sport, the more people will decide to join.

    Once I graduate from college and get myself a stable job, I intend to build one new capital ship (BB/BC) and/or one new small ship (CA/CL/DD) per year. I will of course build these ships to my usual quality (the best I possibly can), and I will use these boats as loaners. I plan to loan them out to potential new members, to give them a taste of what combat should be like. Hopefully, after a few years, I will be able to sell a few off in case several interested people are trying to start a new club somewhere.
     
  18. Bob

    Bob Well-Known Member

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    You want the hobby to grow. Start in your area. Why are you not having a battle at least once a month. When was the last time you posted a flyer or told someone about us. It's up to everyone that reads this forum to go out and find new battlers. Once you find someone who's interested help them get started. Remember when you started and didn't know what to do, help them, even if your are also new. You must:
    Hold regular events at least once a month.
    Go to regional (And NATS) events yourself and encourage others to go with.
    Help the new guy get started.
    Help the old guy keep going.
    No one is going to get into a hobby that is not active. It's the Cost-Benefit thing. It cost money and it cost time. Poeple will spend the time and money if there is some fun at the end of it. No events, no fun, no people. If there is an event in your area you had better fo to it. Why do you have this stuff if you only battle 1-2 times a year.
    Battle is the fun part of our hobby, building is a little fun but a lot of work, all the talk on-line is a pain in the butt. Battling fules the fire to work on your ship before to get ready and after to make improvments.
    Come out and battle!!! Get off the computer and go work on your ship.
     
  19. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    In Region 3 MWC we battle pretty much every month during the warm season (call it March thru November), and we hold build&bull sessions regularly both in and out of season.

    As far as the molded plastic hull with stuff pre-installed: I think it'd work, but we aren't nearly a large enough market to get a company with the equipment to cater to us.

    Another factor with us, that doesn't exist with aircraft is the need for understanding of the ship's systems when you need to repair stuff. Nobody routinely shoots at your plane :) and it doesn't get flooded, or anything like that. Yes, they crash, I know.

    In Region 3 we have several people with loaner boats that serve the purpose, and they have the advantage that no money down is required, as well as the fact that a new guy/girl can try a couple of different ships before going further.
     
  20. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    The short version:
    "Tell me and I'll forget, show me and I'll remember, let me try it and I'll understand."

    Reading an article about model warship combat is not as good as photos of a battle, which is not as good as video of a battle, which is not as good as going to a battle, which is not as good as running a ship, which is not as good as fighting a ship.

    My personal opinion is that a loaner ship would be a very big help. You can bring it to battles and let potential recruits try battling. If they then become a recruit and start on their own ship, you can lend them the ship to learn more about maintenance and operations. It also keeps them on the pond having fun while they work on building their own ship, making it more likely that they will stick around and become a successful member. THIS SYSTEM WORKS: BOTH CARL AND I WERE BROUGHT UP THIS WAY AND THERE IS ANOTHER WWCC MEMBER WHO HAS ALMOST FINISHED HIS BIG MAMIE WHILE BORROWING A TRANSPORT! Every other new member has bought a used ship in relatively good condition so they can get on the pond quickly. New members who started their own ship from scratch rather than buying used or borrowing have lost interest and left.

    The looooong version:
    I think the reserve fleet should be transports, warships, and even a shore battery or two. Shore batteries are to be lent out at battles to potential recruits (people who may be interested). This will focus their attention on how fun it is to shoot things and do battle, while taking a minimum of maintenance.

    Transports are to be lent to potential recruits or likely recruits (potential recruits who "get it") to run in battle. This will teach them how to maneuver a boat in battle, and be even more exciting if they get sunk. TO boost the fun factor, make sure the boat can be easily repaired after a sink and let them know they are a little more than a glorified target in a friendly manner. If they become a recruit (joined the club and seriously investigating building their own boat) you can lend the transport to take home and repair. This will teach them basic maintenance, construction, and tool use, as well as indicate the time commitment. Also, they will have a ship to run and have fun with while they work on their own ship (nothing sucks more than not having a ship to run!).

    Loaner warships should not be given to potential recruits. They have a high probability of getting sunk because they don't yet know how to battle, and it'll be embarrassing and won't be fun for their big bad ship to get sunk and to have to repair it's many systems that can break down (as opposed to a meek unarmed transport that is expected to sink and only has a few systems to look after). Instead, loaner warships should be lent to members whose boats have trouble, recruits who are truly ready for something bigger, or maybe close friends who already have some understanding of the hobby from you (don't run a boat, babysit them: they will feel more comfortable and do better getting help from someone they know and you can deal with any technical issues), with the caveat that whoever uses it must fix any damage (a good excuse to come visit or have a build day). They can also be sold to recruits as a first ship instead of having them build their own. This does several things: it gets them on the pond very quickly with a ship that can shoot (upping the fun factor), allows them to learn what they like and dislike about a ship and provide a pattern for them when they decide to build rather than buy, and provides a small windfall and frees up shop space so you can build whatever new ship you've fallen in love with (yes, building a ship should be a love affair, and you shouldn't bother producing junk you don't love). The best candidates for the reserve fleet are the warships you just finished using: get them battle-ready before putting them into storage (keep your bottle, reg, and radio, but don't cannibalize them for guns of parts) and sell them with a price that reflects their aging bones and the improvements in building technique.

    The fine print (it doesn't get any finer than this):
    Your mileage may vary. See club website for details. Safety glasses required. Warning: model warship combat is not for everybody. Ask your doctor before attending. Some restrictions apply. Caution: live rounds. May cause bruises, welts, dents, holes, or outright sinks. Sunscreen, hats, and sunglasses recommended. Sunglasses do not count as safety glasses. Batteries not included. Model warship combat contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause birth defects, use at your own risk. Symptoms may include itchiness, runny nose, sneezing, diarrhea, painful rectal hemorrhaging, hallucination, dementia, psychosis, coma, death, and halitosis. Not a toy. Model warship combat contains small parts. Not recommended for children under two feet tall. Do not point model warship combat at eyes. Model warship combat may require getting wet, swim trunks recommended. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. Makes wide turns. Do not use unless certified by a club administrator. Model warship combat takes no responsibility for loss of or damage to model warship combat during use. Do not use model warship combat as a ladder. Fleet Admiral's warning: model warship combat is know to cause periods of intense excitement. Consult a doctor before using if you have heart problems, are pregnant, suffer from that memory whatchamacallit, or have recently stuck your fingers together with superglue.... or epoxy.... that's just pitiful.... Cap'n Jack's warning: model warship combat has been known to cause excessive pirate talk. Ye be warned!