"Growing" the Sport

Minor correction: MANY (not all) new members in the WWCC who started their first ship from scratch have lost interest. The founding members didn't get to buy used ships, right?

 

All the points here I've seen are all valid and correct. We toyed with ARF warships before but time and cost plus the market played a huge part. Problem today is that we live in a world of instant gratification. The Toy RC market caters to the one time RCer. I refer to the market ast the "Disposable RC Market" . Kids and Teenagers want the instant fun factor delivered NOW and if it breaks they dispose of it and get another new one. I've always beleived that a ARF combat ship needs to be made with various packages to outfit it. Superstructures scares the Beg#$^%^us out of a lot of people but keep the structures simple and have ready made basic supersturctre components or a superstructure pacakge, DRIVE packages ect. Simple installations or at least have a drive system already installed. Cannons are a huge mystery to new people. The Pneumatics are more frightful.Arf are becoming more popular look at the fast electrics.Scale Models in Motion build ARF. They started small and now have 144 scale Yamatos for 4000.00 Ready to go everythhing fully detailed. So the scale model ARF is a growing market. This is a good sign and maybe the time to develop a entry level rccombat warship. Maybe an armed transport one cannon with a small bilge as an entry level ARF. A good way to keep it simple but at the same time make it easy to produce, install for full ARF, SEMI-ARF OR NON ARF. Least this way the new guy can sail as convoy target but be able todefend or go on the attack.He would get the basics of the ship and it's systems and basic battling whether convoy or as an attacker. The model should not be too small or too big. Easy to transport.

Hey if Robot Wars can do it ..we need to get sponsors and create a venue to really show how much fun this stuff is. Start with community Cable channels ECT.

Am I making sense here?

 

another possibility for new-comers would be crewed ships. they would only have to focus on 3 functions (rotation, depression, and fire) while the capt. would be able to control the ship and the other guns there by providing the best opportunities for engagement. but I don't know other clubs takes on "crewed" ships, just a thought though.

 

Having club boats ready to sail at a meet, standing by for want-ta-be's to captain is a big plus.

But the problem is, to get new folks to the meet!

Once they are there, they are hooked!

I have read a number of posts where folks talk about explosive ordnance, pyrotechnics and the like. I DO NOT want any of them NEAR the pond on sailing day!

Knight

 

We need to make these local battles or contests as Events akin to the local area. Use it to raise money for a charity or something to highlight it as a spectator event.

 

hey knight than I guess there will be no market for my thermal nuclear Minnie me mine than Muhhhahahah Muhhhahahah Muhhhahahah! Dam back to the drawing board []

 

"The short version:
"Tell me and I'll forget, show me and I'll remember, let me try it and I'll understand."

Build and extra boat bring it along let some try it, talk to them make them feel at home. take time to answere there question and show them everything they want and they will follow. The people are the the sport not just the boats.

having something for them to run is a big plus.

As for a rtf boat what about a convoy ship / raider. start out learning to run it then make it a 1. unit ship. con voy speed 1/2 unit pump and 1/2 unit gun (25 shot and heck you can conseal it). I know that a gun has to be 1 unit but its a convoy raider it was designed to harass not fight. think it would be fun to run and alot cheaper to start with. then when they are hooked they can build a combat ship. Just food for thought.

 

Yep. I think what would be nice is a good rather generic fiberglass transport hull such as a T2 tanker. Merchies are pretty much generic enough you could build it as USS Neosho, fleet oiler or Akagi Maru, Japanese cargo ship and nobody would complain. Throw a one unit cannon on there and a half unit pump and you've got a fairly cost effective ship that can be used as a warship or a cargo ship as desired.

 

It appears that the WWCC has been invited to participate in the 2008 Bay Area Makers Faire on May 3 and 4. We will be given a booth, a number of free passes, and a 50'x50'x1' pond to sail in. The pond will allow us to have a blank-fire exhibition (complete with ships rigged to scuttle themselves for the crowds pleasure), or, depending on safety shielding and water drainage afterwards, we may be able to even have live combat. That last part is still being worked out. Last year the Bay Area Maker Faire drew 45,000 people, so we all have high hopes.

 

Row boat you would make a good crack dealer here you go son this one is for free see me when you need more and bring some cash [}]

 

yeah mike i can but im a rookie

 

Something that could help to make it easier to build the vessels necessary to "grow" model warship combat would be to develop a couple of simple, standardized transport designs (my thoughts were along the lines of a Liberty Ship, Victory Ship, and something for the Axis) through a collaborative effort between members of multiple clubs and maintain the data required for the manufacture of the components and assembly in multiple formats (i.e. data for the hulls would be maintained as physical scale plans, 2D CAD drawings, and 3D CAD models).
Each format of the data would be prepared such that it could be used directly in the creation of parts for assembly: the physical plans would include patterns for cutting out ribs and various other components, the 2D CAD drawings would be suitable for waterjet or laser cutting the pieces, and the 3D model could be used to either make easily-distributed plugs from which superstructure and hull molds could be made with pre-scribed lines for windows or for the ambitious, it could be used in conjunction with a glass-fiber reinforced SLS resin to directly manufacture a superstructure and hull with an integrated caprail, windows included. A single-barrel cannon for armed merchant vessels could be designed so as to incorporate a highly efficient sliding-breech design such that the parts could be sourced to a commercial machine shop to be precisely made in large quantity. The design would also incorporate servo mounts compatible with widely-available major-branded servos to ensure ease of sourcing compatible servos.
While this wouldn't necessarily reduce the cost (unless you count economies of scale), it would, however greatly improve the availability of the means to become involved in the hobby. In fact, at least in the context of model warship combat, it could partly commoditize the basic merchant vessel, potentially ensuring at least a minimum of necessary cost for a newcomer to get onto the water.

That said, I have access to the CAD tools necessary to produce the 3D models, provided I have some digital 2D data (ribs and 3-views) from which to work and I am more than willing to contribute to such an effort from that perspective if we are to pursue such a project.

 

Your thoughts are following along with mine.

I got to thinking about a model helicopter manufacturer here in the States. His helis are resin reinforced plastic...very tough stuff. His engineer/designer used CAD to design the heli. He incorperated the servo mounts, structurale bracing, stress relief, basically everything the heli needed to fly well. The heli frame is made in two pieces with other smaller pieces for bearing blocks and such. The entire frame is made from the resin reinforced plastic.
After they got the design done, they had a company in Korea actually manufacture the heli. Low cost and all that. The helicopter costs less than $200 ready to fly.

What I'm thinking is that those techniques could be applied to a model ship. perhaps the hull could be three main pieces: two hull halves and a water channel on the bottom. The rudder servo mount could be incorperated into the hull. The shaft holes in the hull will be pre-designed and only require the shafts to be slid and locked into place. The deck could click lock into place. The pump mount would be molded into the hull and come with clips to hold the pump in place. And so on, and so on ...
The new captain would only have to assemble the hull pieces, snap componants into place, install a radio, and sheet/paint the hull.

I really like the idea. I just don't have any idea where to start.

 

I would say that our thoughts coincide, for the most part. Where I feel we differ is that I would prefer to keep with more traditional construction materials but with a "jumpstart" in the construction and design process. However, for those less skilled, I would prefer to keep open the option of the "Almost Ready to Float/some assembly required" path for future pursuit.

As for where to start: if somebody could create a series of .dxf files for a Liberty or Victory hull, including superstructure, I could take a stab at generating the 3D model from which it would be possible to design an optimized kit. I would need feedback from the more seasoned captains here for the specifics and how to universalize the design as much as possible but I'm game for the challenge.

I suppose I should add, that rather than immediately asking that somebody begin manufacturing parts and creating the subsequent inventory, development of an entry-level vessel should start with the standardization and dissemination of the information for a design in a format that is ready-to-use.

 

Webwookie, I like your idea. How much experience do you have with wooden hull construction? I've been learning from the best builders on the west coast for over four years now, and I would be very interested in helping out. Also, what software will you be using to develop the 3D model?

 

Growing up, I built a number of wooden static ship models from scratch, including the USS Constitution, a Vasa, and a Trireme (at the upper end of the complexity scale). The only ship I had previously completed in 1/144 specifically for model warship combat was a fast gun Gearing, the remains of which are at my parents' in Southern California while I do have a keel-built Mogador/Volta for big gun in the works. In short, my experience with model warship combat construction is limited but very focused on the small end of the size scale and I've found that I can apply the lessons learned from static models quite readily to combat vessels.

The CAD application that I principally use is Unigraphics which can import/export to enough different formats to readily interchange data with Autocad, Solidworks, Solidedge, Inventor, and ProE. I also have some software to generate some code from solid models for use with CNC equipment and rapid prototyping equipment but I do not have access to machines of either type.

 

Is Unigraphics a free CAD program? (or at least relatively cheap?) I have the student version of SolidWorks, but that's only good for another 150 days or so. One of my friends uses Alibre Design Express, which is a pretty good CAD software. I think one of the more important keys to success here is to pick one CAD package and stick with it. If we each use different software and keep changing formats back and forth, we're setting ourselves up for disaster.

I think that this is worth starting another topic about, so I'll go ahead and do that.

 

I want to throw my two cents in.. I think I have the right perspective on this one. I want to explain how I got here, my first experience, and where I am going. I think it might shed light on bringing people in and keeping them.

I first heard of these ships a loooong time ago. Then in Fall 06 I decided to search youtube and found Kotori's videos. I especially liked first casualty, the really cool song, the loud action, the water splashing.. it spoke to me. I studied and found out this hobby rolled several of my interests into one. I have been an r/c car guy for over 20 years and have wanted an r/c boat, I like military history, I loved my bb gun and got into trouble all the time, I like the outdoors, and I like to travel. WOW this hobby has it all. Not to mention that the folks seemed to get along and have a good time.

So I ordered a hull in Jan 07 and due to problems didnt get it until march. Now.. I had no idea how to do things and it pretty much sat around for over a year with very slow progress. I found that most of the local veterans were busy and I was unable to get out of town for ship building so my dreams languished in the garage. I finally got on the phone and talked to some very helpful people, got a little encouragement and kept going. I cant tell you how many times I wanted to box it up and give it away (except I had too much $$ in it) or sell it or throw it away. I really wanted some help in person showing me a few things to keep going. I did get help once or twice but for me this was all new terrirtory. I am not a carpenter or fiberglass expert or scratch-builder. I am a driver and I wanted to battle my boat. Well there was a battle in November 07 and I worked very hard on my own and man it was tough. The only way I could get anything done right was to do it wrong at least a dozen times... needless to say the battle day came and I was ready the day after.. sort of. I tried to get back to it afterwards and found myself avoiding it at all costs. It was NO FUN at all. I hated the learn by screwing up model not to mention its expensive.

Well somehow I researched some things and rebuilt my drives shaft using traxxas parts rather than homemade products and got my ship on the water (I bought a used ship to get myself on the water which was the whole point of this thing to me). Now I am charged up again and for some reason all of this is making sense to me. I have yet to install a sub-deck on my VDT but I hope it will be easier. I am finally starting to enjoy the hands on scratch building aspect but still dont know how to use a band saw or other specialty tools.

So why did I tell you this? Well I think I can tell you what would have made a difference for me and for others interested in the hobby. I had no interest at all in being a model builder. I didnt mind building a kit, but I am not a fabricator (not yet but I am working on it). I just wanted to run a boat and have fun. I wanted to quit because I never really got on the water. I can tell you for a fact that running a transpport would have been fun but battling is what kept me in it. I think a RTR or ARTR kit would have been great. I could have already been battling and learn from the guys at the lake rather than being stuck in my garage getting frustrated.

If you guys are worried about riff raff getting a boat and undesirable people being in the hobby, I think that is a bit presumtious, but if it means that much require a background check before they can buy. (that was a joke..) Personally I dont care, it puts a boat on the water and they might stay around and contribute.

I have wanted to do the same and searched the net for a hull setup that could be altered for an rtr or artr boat. It needs work but I think it is a way to get more boats on the water. I could care less if they want to bitch about the rules, fact is the vets do it all the time, just check the spam in my warship inbox, so whats the difference.

 

jadfer, you are exactly the sort of person who is meant to benefit from the availability of a community-designed, "open source" rookie ship "kit." As somebody who is plenty interested in the hobby but is not looking to become a model builder, ease of buildability (as you see it) of the project that we have been discussing in another thread in this section is ultimately part of the goal.