Historical Ship vs Ship actions.

Discussion in 'Full Scale' started by FirePowerDan, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. FirePowerDan

    FirePowerDan RIP

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    You guys are giving me great stuff to wargame battles with. Keep them coming.
     
  2. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    "I'd think that limited to 1.1's and .50's AA would be bad for the US fleet. However, the Dual 5" DP turrets are pretty good at breaking up air formations. It's hard to analyze, as without the radar fire control, how effective would the 5" guns be?"

    I think you might be surprised. Reading the after action reports of Lexington and Yorktown after Coral Sea and Midway respectively show that both ships' captains have very low opinions of the effectiveness of the 5"/38, so I'd assume that the 5" would probably not be very effective without the VT shells of late war. Obviously by the end of the war, the USN practically worshiped at the altar of the very same 5"/38's that Sherman and Buckmaster recommended be stripped from the ships!

    It's going to hinge mostly on the 1.1's I think. The 1.1 has a terrible reputation, but most people would be surprised to find that in all actuality it was probably the second best intermediate AA gun of the war behind only the Bofors 40mm. It's performance is better then the RN's 40mm pop-pom, and FAR better then the IJN's 25mm. Without the ready to go nature of the Bofors 40mm (The Dutch had the 40mm deployed on some of their ships prior to the US entry into the war), a little more money would have probably been spent developing the 1.1, and it would have probably ended up as the finest intermediate AA gun of the war.

    The captains of those early actions seemed to feel the 1.1 was far more effective then the 5", and both Iowa and Alaska would carry a good number of them...and their relatively high rate of fire might keep the Bettys from pressing in close to ram home the attack. The 5" would probably be more useful then the RN 5.25's on the PoW, and of course Alaska would have 5" while Repulse historically only had the SP 4" triples.

    The result is a far better AA barrage even without the VT fuses and radar fire control. Is it enough? I don't know.
     
  3. FirePowerDan

    FirePowerDan RIP

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    I have a question here. It does not deal with ships but,people. Would Admiral Sprunace been a better choice at Leyte Gulf and visa versa? Would Halsey been better at The Mariana Turkey Shoot? It was the luck of the draw that these two were at these battles.
     
  4. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    I think that Spruance was better then Halsey, PERIOD. He'd have been better in both battles. At Philippine Sea, Spruance was defending against just the sort of move that the IJN tried at Leyte Gulf. The ONLY reason he is criticized, is because the IJN didnt actually TRY it, although it was pretty par for the course for their battle plans. Had the Japanese tried the end run around TF38, Spruance would have looked like the tactical genius he was.

    Spruance's JOB was to protect the invasion, and unlike Halsey at Leyte Gulf and arguably Fletcher at Guadalcanal, Spruance completed his job without a sniff of danger to his invasion forces. His job was NOT to destroy the IJN carriers. That was always a secondary, if highly desirable objective. Protecting the invasion forces was simply not negotiable.

    Halsey on the other hand would have gone haring off after Ozawa's carriers. History has shown us that, just as it shows us Halsey probably would have lost Midway as well, when he went haring after Kido Butai, and very probably would have run into Kondo's invasion force with two BCs and several heavy cruisers, and Nagumo's screen with 2 BC's and a handful of CAs/CLs. (Epic defeat for the US in the battle that follows).

    At Leyte Gulf, Halsey's job was to protect the invasion fleet. Instead, he went chasing after Ozawa's carriers, and the IJN nearly slipped a surface battlegroup in on the transports...the exact move Spruance had positioned himself to parry at Philippine Sea.

    I guess Halsey's performance at Philippine Sea would have been better, just because the IJN tactics that day were suited to what he would do, and Spruance would have been better suited to counter the IJN plan at Leyte Gulf. That analysis requires the hindsight of knowing what the IJN did on those days...information the admirals in charge did not have.

    Regardless, I think that Spruance was the right man for both operations.
     
  5. FirePowerDan

    FirePowerDan RIP

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    Excellent answer. At Midway Yamamato was bringing his Battleships,Yamato,Nagato,Mutsu and probably the 4 Kongo's to do just what you were talking about. An ambush. I wargamed a scenerio one time pitting this force of Japanese vessels against Admiral Pye's Battleships,Colorado,Maryland,Mississippi,New Mexico,Idaho. This force was out at sea from San Francisco. I combined it with Theobalds force that went to the Aleutuens. It was a dawn-daylight battle. The Japanese did a number on this force. There was limited aircraft from Midway and the Long Island on the U.S. side and the Hosho and Zuiho on the Japanese side. It was a good battle. I just did not roll good for the U.S. guns.
     
  6. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    In your wargame scenario, you'd almost have to give the US force the Saratoga (missed the battle by like 3 days) which changes the complexity of the engagement considerably.

    What about Enterprise and Hornet? In your scenario do you have them retire to replentish?

    Another interesting battle might be to give Theobald the Saratoga and see how his force fares against Junyo and Ryujo in an Aleutian carrier duel.
     
  7. Knight4hire

    Knight4hire Active Member

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    Here is something off the wall:
    In another group there is a young man who was wondering if Tirpitz could have saved Scharnhorst from being sunk if she could have intervened in the conflict.

    My answer was no. 1) Tirpitz was out of action at the time. 2) If she was sea worthy, the Brits would have sent a fleet to sink her just like they did with Bismarck. So the Scharnhorst's final battle would have been on a much greater scale!
    My only other thought is that the Brit losses might have been greater with Tirpitz being on the stage.
     
  8. Gardengnome

    Gardengnome Member

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    Saved as not sinking? Potentially yes. Saved as in still as a viable asset? Most likely no. Plus, the Tirpitz, if she was had been sea worthy, would of received major damages as well. Leaving Britain with a higher pairity still.
     
  9. NASAAN101

    NASAAN101 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Guys,
    the question Knight4hire asked, was from me, The names is Nikki.. That questions came out of a dream, i had with her, a year back. I just wented to see what you guys throught? As far as Historical fight go, the one I've been inching my self about is Scharnhorst and DOY.. IF it was Just a one-on-one fight, what would happen?
    Nikki
     
  10. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    Scharnhorst vs Duke of York... Scharnhorst would most likely run away, because DOY completely outclasses her. Remember, DOY was designed, straight-up, as a battleship, with heavier armor and bigger guns than Scharnhorst. Scharnhorst was faster, but with smaller guns and thinner deck armor. If DOY got lucky, like she did in real life, she would damage Scharnhorst's propulsion, preventing her escape and ultimately allowing DOY's superiority to sink Scharnhorst. If Scharnhorst got lucky, she would detonate DOY's magazine, since the British still hadn't fixed their unstable cordite issue by WWII.

    Basically, I'd bet on DOY any day.
     
  11. NASAAN101

    NASAAN101 Well-Known Member

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    Carl,
    IF scharny, had hit Duke first, she could have gotten away, and maybe gotten back home..
    Nikki
     
  12. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    Not likely. DOY's fire control was far and away better then that of the Scharnhorst. Scharnhorst had excellent optical firecontrol, but DOY's radar fire control was even better. Also, the heavier 14" shells had better ballistics which allow for more accurate shooting. Yeah yeah, I know the Scharnhorst got lucky and hit the Glorious at 26k yards, but over time, the chances are in DOY's favor.
    Scharnhorst's 11" shells wouldnt likely penetrate DOY's armor. Remember, the British insisted on armoring her against 16" shell fire. Scharnhorst's 11" popguns arent going to do anything other then soft kill her by damaging fire control and upperworks. A sink is nearly out of the question 1v1. Escape is the Scharnhorst's best chance, and those chances go down dramatically the closer the engagement starts. DOY isnt going to miss too often with her radar fire control. Also, assuming Scharnhorst is running away, she has 3 11" guns on target. DOY will be returning fire with 6 14"...a much higher chance to hit, and hit harder. British shells were more reliable then German shells as well, so even if Scharny hits, there is a respectable chance the shell won't detonate.

    Also, there is no EVIDENCE of the mythical boiler hump hit. It doubtfully happened. It's merely a theory as to why the Scharnhorst slowed so dramatically when it appeared escape was in it's grasp. Historically, the Scharnhorst (and German ships in general) had poor machinery which broke down often. It's far more likely that the strain of running at high speed for a long period of time caused the machinery to fail, and thus slow dramatically, allowing DOY to get in range and add a battleship to her scoreboard.
     
  13. NASAAN101

    NASAAN101 Well-Known Member

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    o i found this and it my me giggle: The planned trap for the German battleship was closing and Scharnhorst commanders were not aware of the destiny they were soon going to face. then, The trap now was perfectly close, and Scharnhorst was in the middle of it. if scharny had been on the outside, what would happen? what do you guys thing?
    Nikki
     
  14. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    Nothing would happen. The Scharnhorst returns to base. At no time could the Scharnhorst accomplish her mission of destroying the convoy due to the proximity of the Duke of York. It's arguable whether or not Scharnhorst could have overwhelmed the convoy's cruiser screen, even without the DOY.
     
  15. NASAAN101

    NASAAN101 Well-Known Member

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    OK guys,
    Scharny was going against: force One which was cruisers HMS Belfast, Norfolk, and Sheffield and Four DD: Musketeer, Matchless, Opportune, and Virago and force 2 was: KGV Class Battleship Duke of York, light cruiser H.M.S. Jamaica and 5 destroyers, HMS Savage, Scorpion, Saumarez, Sword And HNoMS Stord.. so what do you thing? what were her chaces?
    Nikki
     
  16. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    Zero. Anytime you throw a KGV against Scharnhorst, it's game over in a straight up fight. Scharnhorst simply wasn't designed to fight treaty battleships in a straight up fight.
     
  17. NASAAN101

    NASAAN101 Well-Known Member

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    crzyhaw
    what did you mean by this: Scharnhorst's 11" popguns arent going to do anything other then soft kill her by damaging fire control and upper-works. And what is a soft Kill? I dont Understand?
    Nikki
     
  18. Anachronus

    Anachronus Well-Known Member

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    It means they could not do enough hull or engine damage to sink her opponent, but could render her combat ineffective with no way to shoot accurately.
     
  19. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    Anachronous is exactly right. While the Sharnhorst's guns aren't likely to penetrate DoY's armor, they are perfectly capable of causing damage that would make DoY ineffective in battle. Losing fire control is one way. Damage to the range finder and or director causes the fire control to shift into local mode which is far less effective then director control. Turret and barbette hits don't always penetrate armor, but often cause turrets/guns to jam. If the gun can't be aimed, it's more or less useless. Other things such as the PoW hitting teh Bismarck's fuel tank at Denmark Straight could be considered a soft kill because Bismarck's fuel situation left her no longer able to perform her mission (commerce raiding).

    River Plate is a very good example of Graf Spee getting soft killed by Exeter, Ajax and Achilles. She wasn't sunk as a result of the combat action, nor was she in a sinking condition, but the damage to Graf Spee's fuel purifiers prevented her from returning home or continuing her mission. Thus, she was effectively "killed" and unable to perform her duties.

    The experience of the IJN at the battle of the Coral Sea is probably the best example of a perfect softkill. After sinking the USS Lexington and damaging the USS Yorktown, the undamaged HIJMS Zuikaku was "soft killed" because the Americans shot down most of her aircraft and those of her sister Shokaku, and was unable to finish her present mission (operation MO) OR participate in the Battle of Midway a month later which the IJN lost in spectacular fashion. No airplanes/aircrew meant the ship was totally combat ineffective.

    So basically, a soft kill is rendering them ineffective without totally destroying them.
     
  20. NASAAN101

    NASAAN101 Well-Known Member

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    Guys,
    Thanks for that and Thanks for putting up with me! Are Zuikaku and Shokaku actully twin sisters or NO?
    Nikki