yes, they are sisters. Both were commissioned just before Pearl Harbor, and operated together for most of their careers. They were quite possibly the best carriers (although I personally give the edge to the American Yorktown class) in the world when they were commissioned and both operated until late in the war, proving to be a constant thorn in the side of the Allies. Shokaku was sunk by submarine in the Battle of the Philippene Sea, and Zuikaku was sunk in the Battle off Cape Engano by carrier planes while part of Admiral Ozawa's decoy force in the larger Battle of Leyte Gulf.
crzyhawk, Zuikaku and Shokaku went up against Hornet and enderprise more then once, and came out on the losing end.. but any way, here is another what if: If Renown and Repulse went up against PE, if i was in john tovey place, i'd tell both ships not to fire on her but to keep her back by any means, includind a towline, even if i get bite by her, and if they could hold on to her, when john was his way back to scapa flow Id have them bring her with us, even if shes wiggling to get away, then if she able to some how break the tow, then id fire on her.. My way of thing is all ships weather they Allied or Asix, has a right to be on the water, even in war time, but that just me.. that im feeling, you thing about it, and let me know what you guys think.. Nikki
Actually, the Sho and Zui only fought the Enterprise and Hornet together once, and arguably won at Santa Cruz. Hornet was sunk, and Enterprise was heavily damaged while Shokaku was heavily damaged in her own right. Granted, the IJN also had the Zuiho and Junyo, so the Americans were outnumbered in flight decks 4 to 2. The major difference is, the IJN airgroups were decimated. After Santa Cruz, American carriers were never again seriously threatened by IJN carrier power. American aircraft were much more robust, and their pilots more likely to survive losing a fight then were Japanese pilots. That meant that the Americans often got to learn from their mistakes. A mistake by a Japanese pilot was usually fatal, and the Americans were no slouches either in air-to-air combat or in anti-aircraft gunner from the surface. At Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz, the Americans finished what they had started at Coral Sea: The destruction of the elite pre-war aircrews the IJN started off with. The IJN had no training program in place to replace the lost aviators, where as the US rotated their veterans out of combat to pass on their experience to the new pilots. Once those pre-war IJN pilots were killed, their carrier effectiveness was essentially gone.
Michael, I know! how do you say their names, i always feel like im say them wrong? But anyway, here is another what if: If Renown and Repulse went up against PE, if i was in john tovey place, i'd tell both ships not to fire on her but to keep her back by any means, includind a towline, even if i get bite by her, and if they could hold on to her, when john was his way back to scapa flow Id have them bring her with us, even if shes wiggling to get away, then if she able to some how break the tow, then id fire on her.. My way of thing is all ships weather they Allied or Asix, has a right to be on the water, even in war time, but that just me.. that im feeling, you thing about it, and let me know what you guys think.. Nikki
Absolutely impossible. There would be no way to get a tow cable on the PE, and even if they did the Germans would cut it. If the British got within tow range, they'd be eating torpedoes from the PE. That being said, the PE has a ton of horsepower, and you can't tow a ship that doesn't want to be towed, the cable would break. Besides all that, even if the engineering plant went completely dead, and the Germans had no power with which to fight back, they would scuttle the ship before the let it be captured. With capture impossible, sinking it is absolutely the best option for the British. As for the IJN carriers, I have always pronounced them show kah koo and zooey kah koo, but I am probably wrong. I've heard other people call them sho kuh koo and zwee kuh koo (probably more right then I have said it). The bottom line is, I simply don't know.
MIke, ever heard of a fish on the hook, that what you have if your able to get two towlines on her.. But what di you men by that, i dont quick understand.. Talk to you later ok.. Nikki
Shokaku is pretty easy to pronounce, it's basically the way it's written. SHO (show) KA (kah) KU (koo). just remember not to drag out any of the syllables too long. Zuikaku is slightly more complex, because some people mix up the first syllable. Zui is a single syllable, so it takes the same amount of time to say as any other syllable in the word. The pronounciation Zooey is two syllables, and is incorrect. The correct pronounciation is ZUI (zwee) KA (kah) KU (koo). Other carrier names mentioned in this thread are pronounced Zuiho ZUI (zwee) HO (ho) and Junyo JUN (june) YO (yo, as in yo-yo) As for towing ships that don't want to be towed... if a ship doesn't want to be towed, there are lots of things it can do to escape. Obviously, warships can shoot back. Try and pass a tow cable over, and a warship will shoot the cable, the people, the reel of cable, and anything else in that area. Even if you disable its guns, you need to secure the cable somehow. Short of sending a crew over to tie the cable on, that's pretty difficult. Even if you used some giant hook, they can always cut the cable. Either with axes and hatchets, or an oxy-gas cutter. The ONLY way to tow an unwilling ship is to board and capture it. Since most warships don't want to get captured, they will scuttle themselves if unable to resist boarding action. The Bismark scuttled itself to prevent capture (that's why it sank), and a number of U-boats scuttled themselves after being forced to the surface by damage. Captured u-boats were only captured because it takes time to scuttle a ship.
Guys, OK sticking on PE, for a minute, I got this from a friend and wanted to get your take on it on this: If you were in John Tovey's place, and ordered your battleships not to fire on Prinz Eugen, the Prinz could then sidle up nice and friendly, without firing....come in really close, between your two battleships.....and then let both of them have three torpedoes in the belly, straight in the engine rooms, at point-blank range! Both your battleships would receive enormous, definitely fatal damage. They might even capsize within minutes. And the Prinz might even get away before your heavy guns could blow her to bits! Even if she didn't escape, a cruiser sinking two battleships....the Prinz would be a legend forever! just let me know what you thing ok.. Nikki
Nikki, what you've just demonstrated is exactly why Tovey would never order his ships to hold their fire. A captain's (and Admiral's) responsibility is to his crews and ships first, to keep them alive. Anything else, be it capturing enemy technology or info, merchant raiding, or destroying an enemy warship, is a distinctly secondary concern. Obviously some risk is necessarily involved in any military action, but but there are a lot of risks that DON'T need to be taken. Risking a destroyer or frigate in order to capture u-boat enigma codes was considered an acceptable risk, especially during the beginning of WWII. Risking a pair of battlecruisers in order to capture a single heavy cruiser intact was never considered an acceptable risk. The British didn't need to add the ship to their fleet, and there wasn't any classified information on that ship that they couldn't get from safer sources.
Exactly. You always play to win. When I was in the Army, we were often told if we ever found ourselves in a fair fight, we didn't plan the mission properly. Aside from all that though, there is really very little to gain from capturing the Prinz Eugen. Frankly, she wasn't a very good ship in the real world.
She was built well enough to survive two atomic bomb blasts! If only they had put 11 or 12 inch guns in her turrets, then she may had been a better fighting ship. I have often wondered how hard would it be to refloat her. She is sitting at an angle. Basicly upside down with her bow 100 feet below the surface with her rudders above the surface....
So did both the Salt Lake City and the Pensacola, usually reviled as among the very worst heavy cruisers ever built. Unlike the Prinz Eugen though, Pensacola and SLC required gunfire to sink later, where as PE rolled over of her own accord a few days after the second bomb blast.
Guys, Dont sell PE short ok.. She was one of my family cruisers.. And being open about all this, IF given the Chance she could very well could have given britain nightmares, even if that ment trying to protect her bigger brother From KGV, Rodney, Norfolk and Dorsetshire .. That all I'm trying to say ok.. Like, i said in one of my other threads about her: . she was a little fighter, and proved it against hood, and POW, i still thing it was ballys for Hel Brinkmann in stay with Bismarck like that, and there were a few times, her bigger brother, Bismarck actully got in front of her, to some how protect her.. So, she one little girl you dont went to mess with, she'll bite if given the chance ok.. Nikki
I'm not selling the PE short at all. When compared to contemporary designs, she simply wasn't very good. She was only average speed at 32 knots, and carried fewer guns then the American and Japanese heavy cruisers. Her armor protection wasn't very good, although few heavies did have decent armor. Her secondary battery was only 105 mm (4.1") guns, which while decent AA guns, weren't very hot in a surface to surface role. Both American and Japanese cruisers went for 5" secondaries, which performed as well as the German 105mm in the AA role and were superior in the surface-to-surface role. The PE's absolute biggest problems were her unreliable machinery and her short range. For a fleet with a mission that primarily consisted of commerce raiding, these are fatal flaws. American, British and Japanese heavies all had nearly DOUBLE the range of the PE, and machinery that could be trusted to keep running, not to mention more firepower. That's why I say she wasn't that good. Interesting ship, very cool looking, but from a numbers perspective, she wasn't a very good design. EDIT: For the record, my favorite ship is the American heavy cruiser USS Salt Lake City, which all things being equal is widely considered one of the worst if not THE worst heavy crusier design (Pensacola class) from any nation in the war. She's got a list of flaws a mile long. So don't think i am just ragging on your favorite ship Nikki, I'd say the same kind of things about my own favorite ship. Just because they have flaws doesnt mean they aren't worth loving!
Mike, I thing everyone else is.. but PG was a good cruiser, I just wish she hadnt been sank at all, but that just me.. I asked another friend this and i wented to see what you guys thing: this is about PG trying to escape in May 1945, Lets just say if the 7-heavy hitter (KGV, DOY, Nelson, Rodney, Renown, Ramillies, Revenge) Gave Helmuth and Ernst an ultimatum for how ever long, either 30-minutes to an hour! and when that hour is up,then if Helmuth Brinkmann and Ernst lindermann dont give in, then open fire on her! But give them a chance to give in again! What do you thing? this is more of a what if.. Nikki
A heavy cruiser is not suited to fighting battleships. It's like bringing a lightweight boxer to fight a heavyweight boxer: he may be fast, but the big guy is simply built bigger, tougher, and meaner. It's great to have pride in your ship, and be able to put on a strong show of bravado. At a certain point, however, recognizing the strengths and limitations of your ship is important. Going into the WWCC's annual Last Man Standing battle, I claimed I would smash every ship in sight and never rest until I filled Davey Jones' locker so full of my battered and broken enemies that it simply wouldn't fit my VU. However, I knew that my VU's 7/32" stern guns were too small and shallow angled to cause much underwater damage, and my thin armor and small displacement left me vulnerable. I spent the battle dealing as much damage above the water as possible, counting on other ships to deal underwater damage: my holes would let water in once someone else let in a little water to start. I also sank at the end of the first round, done in by the small displacement of the VU (I dragged a light cruiser to the bottom with me, so I wasn't too sad).
Eric, the name is nikki. I know PG didnt have much of a pray, but its more of a what if ok.. I know her limitations! im not trying to get anyone mad at me ok.. Nikki
Ok, Nikki, it's like this. Prinz Eugen was a fine ship, but she didn't have a hope in hell of defeating the opponents levelled against her. That she survived the war was interesting, but of no consequence. She was outdated, outclassed and outgunned. Give it up already. Pardon me for being abrupt, but it's getting annoying.
