HMS Attacker

Discussion in 'North Atlantic Treaty Combat Fleet' started by sinkin321, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. sinkin321

    sinkin321 Member

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    HI: Pulled the Attacker off the shelf and started to get it ready for the weekend.
    I just want to make sure of a few things.
    15000+ tons = class 3 no problem
    18 nots means 40 seconds/100ft - sucks - but no problem
    pump output = problem
    how do i find what the output is for a carrier, I know how to measure the output but what output do i use?
     
  2. sinkin321

    sinkin321 Member

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    The ship is ready to run other than the pump outlet ( FIRST POST)
    I will be setting all internals on Sat. and glassing in the battery trays
    Ship has a slow speed 550 motor and a 45mm 4 blade prop which should give the proper speed. Second flight deck is complete and all systems check out ok.
    Attacker is set up with 1 pump and a bow and stern gun same as a small cv.
    this thing is as long as a lutzow, as wide as hood and has a deep draft,
    but at 40 seconds and one small rudder the school bus would turn better.
    should be an easy target for even the slowest in the fleet.
     
  3. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    Attacker is a CVE (Escort carrier) so its only 1.5 units like other converted merchant ships get.

    Minimum fleet speed is 22 knots, so she'll be 38 seconds speed.

    Pump output for a CVE is .75 gpm. Carriers built from BB hulls get BB pumps at 1.25 gpm (ships like Kaga and Shinano). Carriers built from BC hulls get BC pumps (like Lexington and Akagi) at 1.0 gpm. All other warships including purpose built carriers get .75 gpm pumps.

    As far as your units go, as long as everyone else up there has no problem with you running it as a three unit ship, I'd leave it alone and call it a house rule. I think you might be surprised with your turning on it; Phil A. has a little seaplane carrier with similar characteristics to your Attacker and with the single prop/single rudder it's a pretty snappy turner IIRC despite its slow speed. I think it will be a fun ship for you to drive, honestly.
     
  4. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Hi John,
    What type of pump and pump motor are you using? I've done some tests on pumps and outlets and can help determine the outlet size you need.

    Unlike IRCWCC or MWC rules that allow 1/8" and 3/32" outlets for 1.0 and 0.5 unit pumps, in Treaty the outlet size can be varied to get the right pump output. My pumps with small Princess Auto "toy" motors need 5/32" outlets to pump 0.75 gpm. (The rules are based on the smaller American gallon, not our Imperial gallon that's 25% larger.)

    As far as the units go, if HMS Attacker's set up for 3.0 we can go with that for now and revise later to comply with the official Treaty rules. I'd really like to see your monstrous Shinano in action next year.

    See you Sunday. If you need any assitance before then call or email me.

    Bob
     
  5. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    I'd say go for it with 3 units. I know I've read that some of the CVE's had almost the same plane capacity as the CVL's. If I'm remembering correctly the Independance class was suppose to carry 45, but the actual number was lower, while the Sangamon class CVE carried 30+.
     
  6. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    Actual it would only be running as a 2.5 unit ship. 50 round bow gun(1 unit), 50 round stern gun(1 unit)and .75 pump only counts as .5 unit. If it was to run as 3 units you would need 25 more rounds either in a mag or as a seperate gun.
     
  7. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    the .75 unit pump counts as a 1.0 unit pump IIRC. My CVL Belleau Wood has 2 50 rounders and a .75 gpm pump. The .75 gpm pump only counts as .5 units on cruisers, unless I misunderstand.

    You're right about the airgroups too...a standard Independence class airgroup was about 36 aircraft: 24 F6F and 12 TBM. Off the top of my head while the CVEs could carry 34 aircraft they generally operated about 24: 12 FM-2 and 12 TBM. I'm not sure what the RN loadout was, I'll see if I can find it for you.
     
  8. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    According to this page: http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/Attacker.html

    Attacker generally carried 14-20 Swordfish/Avengers and 4 Martlets (Wildcats) when serving in the Atlantic theater. As part of the BPF, she carried Seafires. Numbers information on the airgroup size seems limited, but it looks as though the CVEs never really carried more then 24 birds.
     
  9. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    I was mistaken, I was thinking any ship 3 units and under could carry a .75 and have it count as a 1/2 unit.

    12 less aircraft is not very many to go from 3 units to 1.5 units. Perhaps we should look at assigning carriers units based on aircraft carried rather then displacement.
     
  10. sinkin321

    sinkin321 Member

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    Bob: the pump is a bc with a 600 motor. I will start to set the output on it tonight.
    Sorry for the 3 unit mistake I read it as a light carrier.
    This ship was the Pennsilvania liner and then converted to a carrier. Dimentions are off for the attacker but it was as close to it as I could get at the time. I have no problem unhooking one of the guns and running as a 1.5unit ship.
    The Shinano will be the ship for next year with treaty as it is worth "squat" as a ircwcc ship but a lot as a treaty ship. The shinano will take some time to refit but i think it would make a nice little carrier to use. I do have the second hull for another and may lay down another.
     
  11. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    John,
    Is the other carrier hull the small Japanese one?

    Re the Battlers pump and motor combo it'll probably pump at least twice what the CVE is allowed. You can try a 0.5 unit IRCWCC restrictor (3/32") but check to see if the motor runs hot. That's a pretty big motor and pump for a CVE.

    Bob
     
  12. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    HMCS-

    We had originally thought about that when we were trying to figure out how many units carriers should get, but decided against it for a few reasons. The most important reason is that the US carriers would have more units then just about everything else. Ships like the Shinano (designed for only 45 planes since it was to be a base ship not a fleet carrier per se) would have really taken it in the shaft.

    We figured that CVEs were built on merchant hulls (as opposed to the warship hulls for most CVLs), and wouldn't be able to take as much punishment, so restricting them to 1.5 units like Q ships, raiders, oilers and other converted merchies was fair.

    I was talking to one of the founders last night about this, and there had been some discussion about .5 unit pumps on "all other warships" being .5 gpm but it got tabled, then slipped through the cracks. It's something that they will have to revisit, and sooner rather then later since there is obviously someone interested in a ship that would be impacted by this.
     
  13. the frog

    the frog Member

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    In treaty a half unit pump for a cruiser is the same as a full unit pump .75 gpm. So any cruiser captian would be a foolto waist a half unit and claim a full unit pump.He should use the half unit in a gun rather than loose it claiming a full unit pump
     
  14. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    I understand that part, the confusion was I thought any ship 3 unit and below could use .75 pump and have it only count as 1/2 unit.I didn't realize only cruisers could do that.
     
  15. sinkin321

    sinkin321 Member

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    Bob: I have an in line resister for the pump and can ajust the volts to the motor as needed, this should do fine. See you at 10:00
     
  16. sinkin321

    sinkin321 Member

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    As for the other carrier hulls I have another Shinano and two Junyo's. I still have the plans for Midway (IF I GO COMPLETELY MAD)
     
  17. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    John,
    I like the Junyo. I see a carrier in my future.

    Guys,
    The weather forecast isn't too bad, only a 30% chance of drizzle in the morning. Let's go ahead with the battle regardless. Jason and Scott - don't expect an email at 0800h, just head for Dartmouth. Scott - I have the gun shields for the HMS Abdiel in my tool box.

    Due to work comittments (I'm on call this week) I didn't get to Banshee to fill my extra CO2 bottles so have no spares. Hope everyone got their bottles filled in advance. I have two partly full 3.5 oz bottles that should get HMS Minotaur through a 2 sortie battle.

    Ship status:

    Minotaur has had larger drag discs installed. The speed last time was 32-33 seconds / 100' so it'll be slower but maybe not as slow as it needs to be. The BB jam in the bow cannon has been cleared and the magazine is feeding well (at least on the work bench).

    The faulty rudder servo in Black Prince has been replaced and the same props and drag discs as on Minotaur were installed. The BP is available as a spare ship complete with radio. (Ralph has a friend visiting from out of province so won't be using the BP tomorrow.)

    HMCS Prince Robert has had a system check and everything is working.

    Jason, you can use the BP or the Prince Robert. If the latter your receiver and your receiver battery pack (a 4 AA cell pack will fit) should plug right in. The foremast is hollow so you can run the receiver aerial up it and string it back to the aft mast. The smallest props I have (20mm) have been installed so it will be slow. How slow is uncertain.

    The CO2 capsules used for PR are $3.00 each (1 per sortie), and the larger ones for the BP are $4.50.

    I need to collect $5 from Rob, Henry and Jason for CO2 at the last battle. That will go towards NABS refilling the tank and will be paid to Steve Hill as previously agreed.

    See you all tomorrow at 1000h.

    Bob
     
  18. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    John,
    I've found a nearly perfect match for your 'HMS Attacker': HMS Pretoria Castle.

    Pretoria Castle was a Union-Castle liner built in 1939. She was taken over by the RN in 1939 and converted to an AMC with 6" and 3" guns. She served in the South Atlantic until mid-1942, when conversion to a large CVE began.

    She was completed in August 1943 but never saw action, being used as a test carrier for landing systems and new aircraft, including the first British jet. In 1946 she was converted back to a liner and renamed Windsor Castle. Scrapped in 1962.

    LOA was 594', beam 76' and draft 29'. Those figures are very close to your model's. (I think you said ~600' x ~80'.) The one good photo I found (Wikipedia) looks much like your model except the area between the underside of the flight deck and the original bow is plated in and has large rounded holes on each side - very much like HMS Argus in it's final form.

    Gross tonnage was over 17,000 - considerably more than most American and British CVEs. No need for 'grandfathering' your CVE - just rename it.

    Bob
     
  19. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    Re combat units for the HMS Attacker/Pretoria CAstle, Treaty would give it 1.5 as a CVE. However, it's not a lot smaller than the IJN Junyo which was also converted from a liner, but is considered a fleet carrier with 5.0 units.

    I'm happy with it having 3.0 units.

    Bob
     
  20. HMCS

    HMCS Active Member

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    Conway's list the Pretoria Castle CVE as 19,650t standard and 23,450t deep load, bigger then most of the CVE's. 2 shafts with 18 knot speed, 4-4"(2x2)and 28-20mm, and aircraft varied.