Actually, Tugboat, I think a predread could be a good ship in Big Gun. The biggest challenge, for Big Gun ships that size, is layout and hardware mounting. I've been wanting to build one for a couple years now. I'm just waiting for Strike Models to get their larger-caliber Big Gun cannons on the market. Which predread are you thinking of? If I've got plans, I can try to CAD-model the hull in DELFTship to get hull sections that are legal in both Big Gun and Fast Gun.
Pommern (SMS Deutschland class) is going to be the subject of the next class, which will be scratchbuilding a fiberglass hull. I can email you the frames and plans soon; I've got a bunch of work to do between now and 0700 Saturday in order for Lil Scharnie to be ready. Had a near-catastrophic separation of the subdeck from the 'glass over half the length of the hull.
Get him to the ER! Looking forward to the next class. I'll go Axis for a Deutschland Klasse. Not the ideology but it is a Predreadnought and those I'll sail no matter which side they are on.
Ideology? What ideology? I went axis because I could act silly and yell Banzai as ships sink. And the cookies. Can't forget the cookies. A healthy part of a mutual co-properity sphere! If Strike gets their guns together, I'll do the predread class with a set of their guns in the main turrets, assuming that my budget can bear the strain. I can also then show the option for mounting fast gun cannons and talk about using an ESC to change speed for different formats. As Pommern carried 11" guns, I guess thaqt means 7/32" cannons.
Will we get a glance next month? You know how we all love to gossip about who's building what boat...
You'll be dodging it on the pond next month, provided nothing more blows up at his mother's house that he has to attend to instead of ship building.
Exciting! Would this be that prototype Roma kitl he's been showing off? Poor little Willie Maykett's timbers are shivering...
I am late to the party but... I don't think the monetary cost is the main problem... I do think the time commitment is. I have seen many people take two or three years to complete a ship - myself included. That is not a big deal if you have a ship. However, if you are getting into the hobby it is a killer. Most of the time people take building a ship is all the trial and error that goes into building a custom ship each time. Because of all the experimentation involved each ship that is built often represents several ships worth of effort. This is not always true - but from what I've seen in our club it is more often true then not. A kit would be great - if it comes with very detailed instructions. I have seen time after time where builders get stuck at some point or another. Most of the time it is not because the next step is hard or because the parts could not be found - it is because the builder is uncertain how to proceed. If new builders had some very clear and very complete instructions to follow that would help a great deal. People don't mind ordering parts from a couple of suppliers but they need to know how to install them. People get uncomfortable following instructions for ship A's propulsion, ship B's cannons, ship C's rotation, etc. when building ship Z. While I don't think cost is the main problem I also don't think it should be ignored. However, a great way to manage costs is to manage expectations. Why do all the turrets have to be armed the first season? Do small and maneuverable ships really need rotating turrets also? Back in the day a fair number of Big Gun ships used non-rotating canister guns or very simple non-rotating guns which were little more than an accumulator with barrels sticking out of the ball valve. Those less expensive, simple to install and operate, guns are not available anymore... If someone sold a kit for a pre-dreadnought which used relatively inexpensive non-rotating cannons, and had good step-by-step instructions online I think we would all have a lot more targets to shoot at. It wouldn't be a 'killer ship' but it would be a relatively affordable, relatively fast way to enter the hobby with an armed ship. That is my $0.02 worth...
That's an interesting idea. My Viribus Unitis is great with its non-rotating stern guns. Admittedly, I'm throwing six balls at a target when a predread would be throwing two, but it seems to me that the basic idea is the same. A pair of cheap MJV-2 guns would service a predreadnought turret quite well. Methinks this idea is worth further development.
A wood kit or a fibreglass hull? A couple of considerations I have thought of. 1. it needs to be a late predread so that it will be covered by all the rule sets. 2. it should have a relatively simple hull shape for ease of construction. 3. Should there be an axis version and an allied version for those who have a preference? Perhaps the IJN Kashima/Katori and the HMS King Edward VII class would be good choices as the designs are very close.
I still think kit ship is good up to decks, running gear and rudder in place. That way you could sell it to anybody to cover manufactering costs. Battlers would have to take it to the next level by arming it and cutting the windows out. Pre packaged battler's kits - pump kit (pump, housing, hose, outlet,wiring to activate it, servo or relay) single gun kit (including gun board/solenoid/servo/ poppet/whatever, hoses) regulator/ accumulator/ hose kit radio kit It is still a handmade ship and the best is to have a captain build it with you.
Very interesting thread. And some very interesting points mentioned. Here are some of the things that we are doing here in the Dayton area in order to see the group grow. Most of these things are based on the original post in this thread. 1 Make it easier for new folks to get started. When we run into a new interest. We try to put them in touch with the combatants that are located closest to them, so that they have a contact point within reach. We then try to get them the information that they need in order to decide which ship they want to build. And when they decide on a boat, we try to do what we can in order to get the boat they chose started as soon as possible, and finished in short order. So that they do not lose interest over an extended period of time. When they do get the boat on the water, we help them work out any new-ship bugs, so that they can have more fun, and less frustrations. We then utilize the the folks running non-aligned ships to keep the teams balanced, so that the newer folks don't end up being out-numbered if possible. And we treat them like a new captain running a new boat, and cut them quite a bit of slack until they get their see-legs. Even if they start talking lots of smack, like some will do. 2 Lower costs. Well as some have already mentioned. There is only so much that we can do to lower the start-up costs. But generally, when we get a new member, we hold a build-session, and the attendees try to bring at least one item from their stock-piles, and donate them to the new captain. So a cannon here, and a pump there makes a big difference at the most crucial time for any battler. The initial start-up. And if one can't afford to give these items away, then perhaps a loan, from the spare-parts box. 3 Treat everyone the same. I don't actually agree with this one. Although I do understand where it is coming from. I am guessing that the original post meant simply to not treat the new folks worse than the others. In my own personal oppinion. We treat the new folks like new folks. Both on the water, and off. It generally takes time and patience, but it is time well spent, even if it seems frustrating at times. 4 Sell your old stuff. I couldn't agree more here. Sell you old stuff, and give the new folks a really great deal on it. Give it away if you can. You might not ever get the stuff back yourself. But who knows? Maybe one day the current new captain might be passing your old stuff along to another new captain in order to help them get started. 5 Loaner boats. This is another very important way of getting new folks started. On the one hand it gives the club the ability to allow new interests to actually run and battle a boat when they drop in at an event to see what we do. But it also allows them to build their own ship at a slower pace, instead of trying to rush it to completion, if they have access to a spare club-boat. The key to a loaner boat is not so much that it is a truly great ship in the combat. But that it is super reliable. My primary loaner boat is a French battlecruiser Strasbourg. In addition to being really reliable. It is also non-aligned. So it can be used to help keep the teams fairly balanced. 6 More family-oriented. In my oppinion. This is one of the most important items on the list. It is one thing to hope to get a new guy interested in the combat. It is altogether another thing to give a new person an environment that they would be comfortable bringing their family to, in order to participate, or just watch. I know how important this can be. Because that is my situation at this time. I have been building and battling the boats for years, and at times my wife would attend, and either watch the festivities, or on occasion actually participate in them. And now we have two children. Vance is 9, and Marina is 10. And they used to drop in at some of the events and watch. Then they wanted to participate. So now they are both running warships at some (but not all) of our events. My current predicament is that I still have the ability to travel to events with other clubs, in order to hang out with all of my friends. But I am very hesitant to bring the family along, due to some things that I have witnessed in the past, that I do not want them to experience. For instance.. Nudity, bad language (the occasional F-bomb), folks yelling insults at each other, kids being talked to by someone that takes the competition too seriously about not being competetive enough, folks trying to humiliate others, and un-sportsman-like conduct. It also seems like there is at times a trend in some clubs where one team generally dominates and wins most of the time, which can, in some cases, lead to elevated levels of frustration for some folks. Which can eventually lead to venting. Some of which is not so bad (all in all). Some can be bad. 7 Advertise more. We have a very active group of battlers that attend R/C shows, and such and pass out information. We also have information posted at all of the local hobby shops and such. We haven't gone as far as the media, but that is something to consider as well. Mikey
Here are a few ideas . 1. make it easier for people to get involved . Facebook group 2. cost work on ideas to get the cost down for someone to get a ship and battle Have several loaner ships at each club and encourage them to buy things in segments rather than all at once, i.e. a hull one month, a deck kit the next, etc. or find members with used parts, also, dont pressure newbies to build Montanas, if they are on a budget help them build something smaller, regardless of what you or your team wants on the water. 3. treat everyone the same some clubs i wont name names treat new people like second class citizens Establish a code of conduct, we are all there to have fun and share, people want to act like turds, let them act like turds at home 4. advertise post flyers about events and stuff maybe start a weekly online web broadcast where you can discuss the hobby and take questions Youtube & Craigslist
My .02. I'm brand new, so my perspective is limited, but I've got a bunch of friends that decided they wanted to play after I described my discovery of this site. Here's the main problems so far. 1. Finding things. Google is normally awesome. However, a lot of the obvious search terms for related things result in other stuff. My google-fu is pretty strong, and still, it took a substantial effort to find clubs or places to buy parts. The forum is helpful(though many newcomers are not likely to spend much time digging through a forum). However, the wiki is not. I couldn't find anything useful in it with a few searches. This website itself is fairly easy to find, so that's a plus, but anything else is a struggle. 2. Rules. With some googling, I found the fast gun ruleset. I also figured out mostly from the context of forum discussion what big gun and treaty basically are. However, it's not terribly easy for a newcomer to quickly determine what the rules are and find out which they prefer. TBH, matters of cost, ease of construction etc are all secondary to finding the info on what you need to do in the first place. 3. Documentation. Not a ton out there. Ordering a variety of parts, half of which are cobbled together from things designed for other tasks, is a tricky business. Especially for newcomers to electronics/RC. Kits with detailed directions are great, but honestly, detailed instruction sets with things such as specific component lists are of immense value, and ordering components separately is no great hardship, provided you know what to buy. 4. Finding places to play. As mentioned, I've got three other people building ships with me. Hell, we could even start a club if we wanted, and had a place to play...but suitable areas are certainly not owned by everyone, and finding one that you can borrow or rent can be troublesome depending on the area. This is likely less of an issue for those people who happen to be brought into an existing club, but I assume that isn't the case for everyone. The more info easily available, the better. A parallel I can draw is to the foam fighting community, which is a similar niche sport, involving rather specialized construction methods and clubs. If you look at one of their sites, such as www.dagorhir.com, you will notice that a pretty good amount of information on getting started is immediately available without any registration required. Nationwide schedule of events, links to units, construction guides, etc. A similar strategy might be of assistance in getting newcomers the basic info they'll need asap.
1. Okay, One thing you need to know is the hobby is not one big together group. It is more like dagorhir, Markland Midevil, Darkcon, SCA, and several other similar groups. Each have their own rule sets and some are quite different than the others. 2. There are two major suppliers and a whole bunch of smaller ones. If you go to a groups web site such as www.ircwcc.com or Treaty, or www.mwci.org or some of the Big Gun sites or 1/96th scale sites, etc. you can find a list of suppliers on most and also their version of the rules. 3. No one produces a good kit like the hobby shop stuff for airplanes etc. because this is hobby where many people build their own ship with lots of variations. This is why there are so many individual parts available for the ships. There are many ways to build the systems in the ships and each to their own in most respects. 4. Find the group nearest to your own local area! If it Big Gun, you will have better luck going big gun! It is fast gun, then the same applies and so on. By having local people to help you, you have the best chance of success. 4. Building a warship to compete is a lot more complicated than wrapping foam around a stick and walloping someone with it. I know, I have done that! Many of the Warship club sites do have "How-to's" to help with building, modifying, etc. And many of the suggestions work for any of the groups. Good Luck; This is a good site to start with and ask questions. Marty Hayes, Annapolis, Maryland, IRCWCC
