My Sharnhorst is commissioned battle cruiser. It will be feared {someday}lol. Funny it's gun's were concidered laking yet history show's they were very capable wepon's with exellent range. Personaly I think that fact just show's tactics and seamanship if that's the right word is just as crittical/important as armor-guns-speed-numbers ect. My goal is to build then debug a ship into a reliable capable warship and then just fight every chance I get I'm bound to hit somthing sooner or later? Sooner I think!!!
Thank's tugboat. I'll do that. Justin I'm in corona Ca. wich is near L.A. I just realized you guy's must be on the east coast.(the clock is 3 hour's fast)
Justin, clearly you've never driven a Scharnhorst in battle. If you had, you would know the meaning of TRUE POWER! [] I don't care much about how ships were historically classified, I care about their position on the food chain. Battleships are the big meaty brutes at or near the top of the food chain. They can gobble up anything lower than them on the food chain, and are a serious threat to ships higher up the food chain. "fish bait" is anything on the food chain that is lower than a battleship. They don't gobble up stuff that's lower than them, they nibble it to death. Also, "fish bait" pose little to no threat to ships that are higher on the food chain. Torpedo boats are fast ships armed primarily with torpedoes, and if the food chain is a vertical line, then torpedo boats are placed a few inches left of the line. Their torpedoes can take quite a big bite out of a battleship, but there's not much meat on them so they must rely on hit-and-run tactics to survive. Shore batteries are practically inedible. My Spahkreuzer is one of the few ships with the intestinal fortitude to successfully digest one. Oh yes, I almost forgot. Transports are classified as "jelly donut" because they are a delightfully tasty morsel for anybody who finds one [] OK I'm not going to write any more. I'm going to get dessert [)] SRK, did you see my post on the first page about the different clubs in California? There are two in Los Angeles, so you get your choice of Big Gun or Fast Gun. Contact them both and visit a few battles before you do anything that's ruleset-specific, such as armament.
I love how this topic is SOOO contraverisal! We just have to classify things! Carl... YOU are soo funnny. Ugggggggg...... I don't know what you said, but it was funny. Tuggy... If you have a refit gneisenau, then I classify it Fast Battleship... NO reason not to. Jason... Wikipedia & Janes classifies it "battlecruiser" too. Wiki also calls it "light battlship"... I don't think this right though, as she was still well protected & 38,900 tons... Marine... You are right, it is a battlecruiser. & can be one hell of a ship. I'm from MI, Tuggy's from GA, Carl is from CA, & Jason is from Canada... I love how this hobby brings people together to argue about ships that have been long sunk!!!!! True, but I fought one in battle & I will admit, it was a force to be reconed.... but then again, it WAS the biggest ship on the pond during that battle (except Alsace, of course) & in MWC, everyone has BB guns. OK, and if scharny went head to head with KGV, Yamato, Iowa, NC, hell even Pennsy or QE.... do you think she would stand a chance? (Let's forget about her torps & gunner accuracy) (I'm surprised no one has brought up muzzle velocity yet)
Against KGV or NC, absolutely. Against a Pennsy or QE... not even in the same league, the Kraut would eat it for lunch. The Pennsy and QE built their reps on shore bombardment, not in effective ship-ship battle. Yammer or Iowa... would KGV or NC or even Bismarck stand a chance? For my argument... I trot out what the Germans called her: Schlachtschiff I'll give you 3 guesses as to what that means, and the first two don't count
Schlachtschiff = battleship Pennsy has 12x 16" guns! I guess we don't see eye to eye... Oh well, I guess we will never know. Unless: Did scharny or gnesneu ever fight a battleship? Do we have a historical references to add kindling to this?
It's the only battle wagon to sink an operational aircraft carrier!!!! and I'm pretty sure it's one of 2 ship's to score hit's on another ship at 26000+ yard's wile both ship's are full steam ahead!?
Yeah, I was going to point out the glaring differences in the fire control and stabilization. Pennsy was not a top tier ship within 20 years of Scharnie or Gneiss guy putting to sea. They fought Renown to no decision, but then Renown had 11 destroyers with her to provide torpedo cover, and this was before Scharnie got her "North sea bow" so she had trouble with the high waves. And, as pointed out, the "ugly sisters" were the only gunships to sink an operational fleet carrier (HMS Glorious)...
scharnhorst is a battle ship by every standard used to designate battleships. guns,especially armor,determine that fact. germany called it a convoy raider but it was a battleship in eery sence of the word
Still don't consider any WWII ship with 11" guns a battleship! The definiton of "battleship" is a ship that chooses primary weap width & armor over speed. The scharnhorst chose speed over thick primaries; therefore it is a battlecruiser. From Wiki: "A battleship is a large, heavily-armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest caliber of guns." This does not match the scharny. Here's a hint toward you argument... Look up muzzle velocity & caliber & rate of fire. (cannon inner-diameter is not the only factor in a gun's effectiveness.)
"Pennsy has 12x 16" guns!" Actually Pennsy has 12 14"/45 guns. I's say Scharnhorst takes her apart. Pennsylvania does not have the range or firecontrol to successfully engage Scharnhorst at long range, nor the speed to close the range. Historically, guns 10 inches and under were considers "cruiser caliber" and guns 11" and over were considered capital ship caliber. Also, according to your own definition: "A battleship is a large, heavily-armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest caliber of guns." you also said "The scharny lost weight by diminuishing her guns (actually BB guns were just not available at the time...)" Which, means that the Scharny had the biggest guns available. Also, you forget that Arkansas was a 12" gunned battleship active in the war and that's pretty close to 11" guns. Scharnhorst would have destroyed her without much effort...at any range. Tuggy: If Tirpitz had ever come out to play with the USS Washington (NC Class) the design would have been exposed for what it was: Overhyped and flawed. Washington would have torn her to shreds. I'd rather be aboard an NC vs a Yamato then a Bismarck... Mike D
