Back to the original question, I've just made my first fiberglass Hawkins Class heavy cruiser hull. If I build it as HMS Effingham after conversion to a CL with 6" guns the 2 in-line guns on the quarterdeck are too small to accomodate BB cannons. Both cannons would have to go in the small deckhouse just ahead of the first quarterdeck gun, where the forecastle deck ends. I assume I can install them pointing out up to 15 degrees on either beam, with neither going through the closest gun's shield.
That rule would allow only one of the two quarterdeck guns to be used - #8 gun at the forward end of the quarterdeck. If the barrel has to go through the mount's position it will be difficult to get it trained out 15 degrees because the deckhouse just forward of the gun is quite small. #9 gun is 6-8" inches further aft and has no deckhouse to hide the BB cannon. To get a second stern gun it would have to in #7 position at the aft end of the forecastle deck, superfiring over #8. #7 has a small deckhouse just forward of it that could hold a BB cannon. Unfortunately it would be right above the drive motors so there may not be enough room. I may have to give up on building HMS Effingham and build one of her slower heavy cruiser sisters instead. Their 7.5" gun shields are almost big enough to conceal the upper end of a BB cannon.
Bob, if you really want to do 15 degree stern guns, I would just place them in the scale locations and place a small box 'shield' over the elbow. Yes, it's not scale, but it's close enough and no-one would complain. Otherwise, I would place them along either side at the deck step, with a tiny amount (enough to put a safety pin into) poking out of the deck step. If I did this, I would not do the 15 degree thing, because people would complain about taking unfair advantage. Instead, I would make them either straight back, or (preferably) slightly converging, probably at 4-6'.
Is the second option allowed? I thought the barrel had to go through the actual gun mount's postion and there's only a single center line gun on the quarterdeck at the deck step. If legal that's the option I'd use and has the advantage of the BB cannons being beside rather than above the drive train.
Here are the plans for Frobisher (1942) glued to the plug's deck. Suggest you enlarge it to see the details. (Frobisher's port and starboard 7.5" gun mounts had been removed). I've been talking about the 2 x 7.5" guns on the quarterdeck. 7.5" quarterdeck guns: The shields are big enough to hide most of a BB cannon's breech and part of the upfeed tube. Effingham's 6" guns (#8 and #9) were in the same positions but their shields are far too small to conceal a BB cannon so the cannons have to go inside part of the superstructure. The quarterdeck ends to the left, just out of the photo, but you can see the angular blast shield sticking out from the roof of the small deckhouse the BB cannon would go in if its barrel has to go through a 6" gun mount's position. The deckhouse is a little over 2" wide so will restrict maximum deflection to less than 10 degrees, just enough to clear the rising stern and have a decent downangle. (The lines drawn on the plan are 15 degree angles.) Commodore suggested putting BB cannons to port and starboard at the end of the forecastle in the 'wall' where the deck drops to q-deck level. I just remembered that there's a 1/2" wide curving surface that runs up from the q-deck to f-deck on either side (the port one is ahead of the ladder in the drawing). It's wide enough that the BB cannons in the 'wall' will be too far inboard to converge, again due to the rising stern, but they could fire straight back. See page 1 of the Hawkins Hull Project build thread for photos of 4 model variants of the Hawkins Class. Photo 3 shows Hawkins - Effingham, Frobisher and Raleigh were identical as built, having 7.x 7.5" guns. Photo 4 shows Effingham after conversion to 9 x 6" guns.
IMO, as long as the barrel intersects the pivot point of the gun shield and kept within the quadrant restrictions, it would be OK. The breach can be left exposed behind or in front the the gun shield, or hidden in super. There's plenty of builds with exposed breaches in front of turrets so there's precedence.
Exposing the breach nut in front of the 7.5" gun shield should hide the upfeed tube completely, so there's no problem putting BB cannons in both 7.5" positions on the quarterdeck. A friend can print 7.5" gun shields that will plug into the deck Effingham's 6" guns have very small shields so a BB cannon can't be conccealed in the furthest aft gun position. The IRCWCC rule as written says only that the BB cannon can be mounted in the superstructure if the turret or shield is too small. I didn't see a rule about the barrel having to go through the pivot point but I don't know if the rules on the IRCWCC site are the latest version. If that's the accepted practice Effingham will be restricted to only the forward q-deck gun (#8) being usable as a stern gun, plus the superfiring gun above it on the forecastle deck (#7), though there's a blast shield that slants up in front of the barrel high enough to limit the down angle. Despite being 1 sec./100' slower the heavy cruiser version is looking better in terms of best gun installation options.
On small boats, making sure a bit of the barrel passes through the turret pivot point shows some effort in complying with sections "9. Cannons shall be placed in the appropriate turrets or casemates occupied by the main battery of the ship being modeled." and "a. Cannons mounted in turrets shall extend from the face of the turret in the same manner as the actual ship being modeled." of the rules. The question is does section "e. Cannons may be mounted in the superstructure if the main turrets are physically too small to house the cannon" allow the leeway to install cannons anywhere in a superstructure if the model has tiny turrets? A question for those with more clout in the hobby than little ol'e me.
That's how I interpreted the rule. In addition I thought BB cannons in the superstructure should be: 1) in a superstructure element on the same deck level as the too small mounts, 2) as close to the gun postions as possible, and 3) not aimed in a way that would give an advantage compared to if the turrets had been large enough to house the cannons. Commodore's idea of putting BB cannons to port and starboard within the 'wall' from f-deck to q-deck meets 1) and 3). I checked the plan and it wouldn't be possible to fit 2 BB cannons in the small deckhouse that extends 3" further aft from the 'wall'. There's not enough room inside to train 2 cannonst out far enough to clear the high stern. I don't think installing them in the 'wall' gives any advantage; it puts them a few inches further from the stern when ideally they should be closer to it.
in the amount of keystrokes used in this thread you could write up a rule proposal to reach the desired outcome
Good idea. I was surprised there were no specifics in the rule about where guns could be mounted in the superstructure. I'll have to rejoin the IRCWCC to submit a proposal.
Here's my take on an update of section "e. Cannons may be mounted in the superstructure if the main turrets are physically too small to house the cannon". e. On models with main armament turrets (or turret-less cannon mountings) that are physically to small to house the cannon breach assembly, the breach assembly may be left exposed in front of or behind the turret, or enclosed inside of superstructure that may be behind the turret. Any exposed cannon assembly in front of the turret location shall extend from the face of the turret (or cannon mount location) in the same manner as the actual ship being modeled.
Sounds reasonable Steve. With that revision one could expose the upper part of the BB cannons in the scale positions with a gun shield stuck on them. Depending on the cannon design they might have to be armored against BB hits, which would make them look even more odd. I use brass 'L' shaped compression fittings for breeches so they should be immune to BB damage. If the BB cannons went in the superstructure Effingham would lose the aft q-deck gun. The second stern gun would be on the forecastle deck but I'd have to lower the angle of the blast shield aft of it to get a decent downangle. Another option would be to use the port and starboard amidships 6" guns, installed as in your photo of the light cruiser.
My Abukuma had really bad cavitation issues which got it into trouble several times and like what was mentioned on an earlier post it was built to attack larger ships that were already occupied, with forward wing turret the round would hit 4" ahead of turret and 1" out from side of ship it was a 15° side mount not good for campaign or against cruisers.
