IRC 2018 Rules Posted

Discussion in 'IRCWCC' started by Kevin P., Feb 20, 2018.

  1. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

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    Good Evening,

    Updated rules for the IRCWCC have been posted on the IRCWCC website.

    http://ircwcc.com/main/home/rules/

    Summary of changes from previous versions. Should have little to no impact for most captains (see rules of official wording):
    1. Light cruiser and destroyer speeds increased by 1 second (LC 22 sec, Destroyers > 300ft 21 sec, <300 ft 22 sec)

    2. A total combined rudder width limit per ship was imposed of 7/8."

    3. Converging fire for sidemounts in separate turrets is no longer allowed

    4. 800ft rule removed for dual sidemounts (mainly Bismarck and Vanguard)

    5. Clarifying text for drag disks/props was added

    6. Reverse-only shafts are not allowed

    7. A half unit can now be used as an independent gun on all ships (with a half unit)

    8. Clarified allowing patching between sorties for ships that sink in first sortie at regionals

    9. Removed requirement for 3rd sidemount to rotate
    Kevin P
    IRCWCC Secretary
     
  2. pigeonfarmboy

    pigeonfarmboy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the work from the officers involved. Look forward to see how this effectively effects the effectiveness of the Bismarck.
     
  3. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    Call me. We can discuss that
     
  4. SnipeHunter

    SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

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    Hint: Not much.
     
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  5. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

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    I’m so new to this sport, and don’t have a clue how things work in the heat of battle. I really want to build a Surcouf. People say don’t even bother, it can’t be done!

    Reading the rules, I find submarines are NOT allowed bilge pumps. So, given the tiny volume of the 1/144 sub, ANY leakage from shaft seals; gun ports; hull deck joint lip; ballast tank o-rings, my lousy newbie skin job OR battle damage and the sub is lost in an extended sortie.

    So my question to the experienced here is WHY?

    I had vision of a Surcouf with twin half cannons and a half pump to keep up with regular leakage.

    Pretty much one good hit will sink it, so why not at least let it be seaworthy? The way I see it, you MUST surface to run the pump, otherwise no makeup air can enter the hull and pumping will just suck in water faster, so once damaged, you GOTTA SURFACE and are at the mercy of the surface ships, so it’s a fair kill. But at least give the system a fair shot at seaworthy.

    I make about 30 models right now. I have a dozen plugs in various stages of development, but I keep feeding the front end of my model addiction with a new keel every few months the next boat I layout WILL be a Surcouf. If I can’t use it to battle, I’ll probably scale it up a bit bigger for general public use and a really cool detailed model of the Surcouf and all the equipment specifically designed to make it work ....won’t be a thing for you guys.

    Anyone have thoughts on the submarine pump rule? I can’t figure out how to engineer around that one.
     
  6. Lou

    Lou It's just toy boats -->> C T D <<-- Admiral (Supporter)

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    It can be done, and it has been done (with an I-400). It's a one trick pony, if you want to do it for the engineering feat then go for it. But based on past play, you will spend a lot of money for little return.
    My personal experience with Frank's I-400 was a high cool factor, but we all agreed too much money for 10 seconds of a battle for him. If you built it for campaign or as a secondary ship, then you potentially will have more fun.
    One other thought, most of our ponds are heavy on the weeds and rather murky, and ramming a sub would happen often...
     
  7. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

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    Subs can have pumps same as other ships. At 1.5 units the surcouf could have up to three .5 unit pumps. The clause you are looking at is for other pumps for ballast control, so those pumps can’t also be used for damage control. Or, if you have a pump that pumps from the main hull volume, it’s subject to restrictor requirements. There is no conspiracy against subs, just a lot of people don’t see the cost/benefit worth it
     
  8. SnipeHunter

    SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

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    G. PUMPS
    1. A pump is a defensive battle unit and shall not be of a positive displacement design.
    2. A one-unit pump shall have one round 1/8" inside diameter discharge port. A one-half unit
    pump shall have one round 3/32" inside diameter discharge port. The port diameter shall be
    measurable from the outside of the ship.
    3. Except as provided in section 11.e, above, a one-unit pump may not be subdivided into two
    1⁄2 unit pumps.
    4. A pump shall have only one electric motor, one impeller and one intake.
    5. A submarine may have a pump provided that the pump can only be used to pump water into
    and out of an enclosed ballast tank. The pump shall not be used for damage control.
    6. A pump outlet shall be aimed so that it discharges water outside of the ship at an angle which
    is either not more than 10 degrees above horizontal, or an


    Those are the pump rules from the IRCWCC site. Reading those rules I disagree that subs are allowed to have damage control pumps. Atleast RAW. I dont think that any of the Sub related rule(s) have been touched in years, because the few subs that have been built haven't been combat effective. (I've also seen a couple of surface runners/dynamic divers used for convoy duty) Yes they can't take any damage, but they are almost impossible to hit too so I always figured that rule was to prevent them from having their cake and eating it too. (The risk of sinking is part of what makes the game interesting.)

    A working static diving Sub with a working gun is doable, it's been done, there are pics of it on this website. There are a host of reasons that you probably shouldn't do it but if that's what you're jonesing for than have at it.

    There was a working 1/144 scale PT boat done years and years ago, it was something like 6" long, slow as a turd (but maneuverable), stupid hard to hit, it was very effective as a convoy ship.
     
  9. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

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    Cool beans guys! THANKS for clearing that one up.

    Surcouf on!

    My ballast system will be molded tubes that fit the bow and stern sections closely running in and out on power threaded shafts. They will leak a little bit but a half unit pump should do nicely. I plan the early layout of the Surcouf with the twin high radio masts and cable stem to stern to prevent being overrun and to use as a gunsight to line up my shots as I surface. I will probably get smoked, but I’ll have fun with it.

    The kids are building a Prinz Eugen now and by next Summer we will have a Brooklyn; Baltimore; and Iowa; to take the heat off me stalking in the Surcouf so yes it’s a spare. I believe I can offer a fully functioning Surcouf kit in the $500 - 700 range (with a 9 channel radio and mini servos). That doesn’t seem like a lot more than other surface ships end up costing but only 1.5 units does not make it a fleet wrecker.
     
  10. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

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    Rut roe! Lol. pump no pump?
    I must say I read the rule as you did Snipe Hunter,
    But I like Kevin’s answer better.
    Aghhhhhhhhhh!
     
  11. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

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    That’s still a penalty? Ramming a sub?
     
  12. Lou

    Lou It's just toy boats -->> C T D <<-- Admiral (Supporter)

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    If I can't see it and you can't see it, but it doesn't come back up how can you call ram? Just being realistic after attending a battle with a sub...
     
  13. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

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    I intend to build this layout with the radio masts doubling as snorkels so will set dive limit to keep the masts above surface so will always be visible and radio antenna will be above surface to keep signal lock B233F63C-E855-457D-990B-FC879C795796.jpeg
     
  14. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    I thought the first rule of business was to find a market and deliver a product... I don't remember a huge clamoring for subs.. Did I miss something?
     
  15. NickMyers

    NickMyers Admin RCWC Staff

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    he is his own market in this case, the man wants a Surcouf. Nothing wrong with that. Well, it is french, so maybe a little wrong
     
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  16. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

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    The ships with the greatest demand are being done already by others. According to the armchair quarterbacks here, I’m not supposed to make ships others make already... so I’m left with the Surcouf that I’ve wanted to do for years.

    Now I’m not supposed to build that either? Lol. Tough crowd.

    My dad always told me “Do what you love, do it well and don’t let the monkeys drag you down”.

    I’ve already had people here tell me they would be interested in buying a Surcouf if I can make it work, So relax Jadfer. Have a banana.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  17. Lou

    Lou It's just toy boats -->> C T D <<-- Admiral (Supporter)

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    The ships with the greatest demand are being done already by others. According to the armchair quarterbacks here, I’m not supposed to make ships others make already
    Typing is impersonal, I believe what they were saying is you produce duplicates don't be surprised if they don't sell. You are better off producing other ships if you want to sell.
    Now I’m not supposed to build that either?
    No one said that

    You are near the Port Polar Bear guys and they are a very active group, please make an effort and reach out to them to see their ships and how an actual battle works - will help with perspective
    http://www.portpolarbear.com/
     
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  18. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    What I said and meant was.. if you are going to be in business.. you need to provide what the people want and are willing to buy..etc.. Given the recent departure of a vendor it would be a shame for someone to invest so much time and effort to create a product to bring to market.. only to sell 1 or 2 of said product. This was not directed as an insult but out of concern.

    That was in no way directed at someone building a boat of their choice.

    However as a vendor/manufacturer.. being combative on the forum does not seem like good business.

    I think you need the banana.. YOU are the monkey on your back.

    Good luck in Business!
     
  19. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

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    Sorry jadfer,

    Building models is the monkey on my back. I do it for the love of it....

    I appreciate all the advice. I really do.
    Thanks.
     
  20. Commodore

    Commodore Active Member

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    I had a Surcouf once. It was a waste of money and effort.

    Once you've been around the hobby a bit, you discover that fun is directly proportional to trigger pulls. More trigger pulls = more fun, less trigger pulls = less fun. One trigger pull = next to no fun.

    This, and sidemounts are why people tend to gravitate toward battleships and battlecruisers. Most class 4+ ships give you 150 to 225 trigger pulls, which = lots of fun & action on the water.

    If people seem a little short or cynical when discussing things like submarines, it's because we've seen it all more times than we can count. We know it's a waste, we try to tell them, and yet people still insist on wasting their time and energy. Been there, done that, won't bother again. If I ever have another sub, it's going to be 1/48 scale or larger, and not built for combat. Most likely I won't bother. I know a guy who has a 32nd Parallel Type VII with the working torps & all that. It's a waste, and sits in a glass case in his garage, under his train set.

    Me, I'd rather have a ship that battles ... something like a battle ... ship. But maybe that's just me.

    Please don't take this, or anything else people say on this board personally. We want you to have fun. We want to have fun with you. We hope that you will maximize your fun, because when you have fun, we all have fun. It's a simple as that, but sometimes it's such a hard thing to say.