Legal for Big Guns?

Discussion in 'Construction' started by Tugboat, Jan 23, 2007.

  1. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    From an earlier thread, Lion (BB) was not allowed because she wasn't laid down, same for Montana. How do the rules look on modifications after construction?

    My question is: If a ship was to be up-gunned, and the shipyard actually started the conversion before the war ended, can you use the bigger guns? I would think so, since if the keel for a ship was laid, you could build the ship.

    Opinions?
     
  2. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    Different clubs have different rules on hypothetical ships, laid down hulls, and conversions. If a club specifies that a ship must have been laid down to be legal, then a conversion must have been started to be acceptable. Examples of this would include Gneisenau getting upgunned to 15" cannons. However, this doesn't mean you get to cherrypick, and go with 9x 15" guns. Example of an illegal conversion in this case would include Bartolomew Colleoni, which had several AA conversions planned, but it was sunk before work could begin.

    Other clubs, like mine, are much more lenient. My club requires that the ship must be mentioned in CONWAYS to be legal. We have a Lion and a Montana under construction, and another Montana hull out there somewhere. Other legal ships include Kreuzer P and Dutch Battlecruiser.

    The interesting question comes when you find a ship that was downgraded during construction, and want to build the originally planned version. Examples include a 12-gun KGV and a 16-gun Belfast. These ships were originally designed to have heavier armaments, but were modified during construction to have a lighter armament. The legality of such conversions is debatable.
     
  3. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    From what I read (and was thinking about) the Gneisenau conversion started, but it was only going to be 3 twin 15" turrets, not 3 guns per with the bigger guns.

    I had been reading MBG big gun rules, but I haven't seen your club's rules yet. (As I'm typing this, they're downloading :)

    I'm interested enough in Big Gun to think about it, just can't afford the cannons until I figure out how to roll my own. I'd seen some sources refer to the Scharnies being very fast ships, and thought they'd be really interesting with the upgraded cannons.
     
  4. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    There is another rule that Big Gun clubs have that could cause some confusion: the Best of Class rule. This rule allws you to pick and choose the best aspects of a ship class, as long as it was still considered part of the class. So, you could build a Bismarck and put torpedos on it like the Tirpitz had. Another example is the Italian light cruiser Giussano. On it's speed trials it clocked in at 38.5 kts. Giussano's sister ship, Barbiano, clocked in at 42 kts. All ships of the Giussano class, including Cadorna, are allowed to go 42 kts.

    An example of something this rule does not allow is an abuse of the Gneisenau conversion. As you point out, it was to have 6 15" cannons. You cannon choose to use 15" cannons in the original triple mounts to get 9 15" cannons. Either 9 11" or 6 15" but not both.

    Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in WWCC rules present a very interesting option. WWCC rules allow the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau class a maximum of six armed barrels. So you get a choice, two triple 7/32" cannons, or three twin 1/4" cannons. Triple cannons pack more damage per hit, but 1/4" balls are more likely to penetrate.
     
  5. JustinScott

    JustinScott Well-Known Member

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    The MBG has a list of "theoretical" ships, so is it written right in the rules which ships are allowed and which are not. The only problem I have with theoritical ships is: If you build a "theoretical" ship for one club, then move, you might have a $1500 paper weight.
     
  6. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    I agree with you on the risks of building hypothetical ships. Thing is, I'm the only one in the southeast looking at Big Gun (as yet), so I can set the rules my group of one plays by :) I also will probably never leave Georgia, since my lovely wife is a lawyer, and have made it clear that she has ZERO interest in taking the bar exam again (which she'd have to do if we moved to another state.

    If I get a Big Gun group together, realistically, I'd use an established rule set and work something out with the existing club so I could get notified of rules changes. I had also thought about 1/96 scale (more destroyers and subs than battleships, but the pictures I've seen are incredible :)
     
  7. JustinScott

    JustinScott Well-Known Member

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    Well found it, set it up, create a site, list it on here & advertise the shit out of it. You realistically need two people to make a club operate & grow. You & someone to battle with. Without the second person, you will have trouble getting attention or new members.
     
  8. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    Ah, I've got a guy in my med school class looking. I just want to figure out what I want before I go to the trouble of organizing & advertising.

    1:96 is cool because you can do destroyers, subs, and torpedo boats, with room to arm everything. Less battlewagons, tho. Plus side is that bigger boats = people can see them from a distance and wonder what the heck is going on.

    1:144 is cool because there are lots of hulls available, but harder to arm everything.

    Even if I decide that all my boating will remain MWCI, I'm starting an Augusta squadron because I'm far enough from everyone else to do it, and we have a pond. It's about 2 hours to the Savannah pond, and about 3 to Atlanta (which for a weekend isn't bad, but med school puts a crimp on my time. I think it might be easier to get a few guys together for a Saturday event, at least initially).

    Rest assured that I will be setting it up here :) You've done all the hard work and it'd be good to have the rest of the fellers with the depth of experience that we have able to help me/rest of new sqdn out with any issues :)
     
  9. JustinScott

    JustinScott Well-Known Member

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    Cool. My G/f is originally from Savannah. Maybe next time we are down there I can stop by the "pond" & prove why the south will never rise again! :)

    Are there many 1/96 subs? I've never seen one. The only one I've seen is 1/144 in WWCC.
     
  10. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    The Scale Shipyard makes fiberglass hulls for most US subs from between the wars, and through present day. My 1:144 subs are scratchbuilt, and hard to fit guns into. I did have an idea for a one-shot spurt gun... it has a one-shot air reservoir that gets charged on shore to 140#, and then goes out to shoot it's load. No need for a regulator or other gas management, because there's no high-pressure side. Just have to size the reservoir right for a 1-unit spurt gun shot.

    Absolutely drop by :) The South might rise again, but I'm not betting on it. It WILL however become part of the Greater East-Georgian Co-Prosperity Sphere!
     
  11. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    Technically, there are *three* armed and operational combat subs in the WWCC. I-400, I-401, and Surcouf.

    Tugboat, your idea for a one-shot spurt gun is very similar in concept to a Big Gun torpedo cannon. Fill it on shore to avoid the weight and space of a CO2 bottle and regulator, then blast it all away in a single BANG. As for reservoir size, use as big a reservoir as you can, while still fitting it in the boat. As you fire, the pressure will drop off. The bigger the reservoir, the less the drop off.

    There is a guy in texas who makes fiberglass I-400 hulls for Big Gun combat. the I-401 was built using one. Very nice, extra-beefy ribs, moulded-in subdeck and caprail, and high production quality.
     
  12. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    Do you happen to have his email address? :)
     
  13. JustinScott

    JustinScott Well-Known Member

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    I'm interested as well. I have long said, if I build something after the Iowa it will be a sub.
     
  14. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    And in the spirit of sportsmanship, we Axis will help you turn your Iowa into a sub :)
     
  15. JustinScott

    JustinScott Well-Known Member

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    Any assistance is appreciated.
     
  16. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    In all honesty, though, I saw the Iowa hull on the Barnstormer Boats site, and had impure thoughts of building one :) They are the most beautiful warships this country every made. Except of course, the Flight I 688-class submarine, SSN-706 in particular.
     
  17. Craig

    Craig Active Member

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    Sorry to get into this one late... Carl. I have an interest in a Montana hull. Do you have any info on where I could source one out?
     
  18. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    "Source one out," meaning you want someone to build you a hull? Short answer: no. Neal is building his out of wood, and was never planning to make another, nor to make a mold for fiberglass. Probably the best I could do is get the ribs that he used. I don't know about the other hull we have in the WWCC. I saw it at last year's fleet meeting and it had no guns and I did not hear anything that suggested it was going to be brought up to combat readiness. The owner has not been very active in the club since I joined, so I don't know whether he would be willing to sell or make a mold.
     
  19. Craig

    Craig Active Member

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    Ok. I was searching for the quick and dirty route. I guess I will attempt to construct one another way. Appreciate the info though. If you know of any pics or resources that have semi-constructed ones or completed projects, whatever, I could sure use the links. Thanks.
     
  20. Craig

    Craig Active Member

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    I've decided to go with the plug and mold method. Thanks anyway.