Limits on MB guns in Big Gun

Discussion in 'Big Gun Combat Warship International' started by Brad F, Dec 6, 2011.

  1. Brad F

    Brad F Member

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    Greetings!
    I’ve been interested in this hobby for a while but haven’t had the opportunity to participate. Probably won’t be able to for sadly another year or so due to work and family issues but I have a general question that’s more of curiosity. This is geared more towards WWCC but any other from other formats please feel free to jump in: Is there any limit on how many main battery guns? I’ve read through a couple rule sets including WWCC but couldn’t find anything but I could have sworn I read on the yahoo forums that a ship like the Montana class were limited in how many guns she should carry (if allowed at all). If so I would assume that this applies to other 12-gun ships such as the South Dakota class BB-49 et al. Thanks for any info!
     
  2. admiraljkb

    admiraljkb Member

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    Typically there are no limitations on armament in 1:144 Big Gun, other than it has to be 3" or higher. WWCC was the sole exception for a while, but rescinded it recently. The Big Gun saying typically goes: if it is over 3" and you are skilled/crazy enough to arm it, go right ahead! The corollary is don't be surprised if stuff breaks more often due to added complexities. Most folks just arm the primary battery and leave the secondary and tertiary batteries alone.

    Jeff Burns
    BGCWI
     
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  3. mabgfounder

    mabgfounder Member

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    The other problem is that the secondaries dramatically increase the point value of your ship without really increasing its offensive capability. So you are actually creating a competitive disadvantage by adding them.
     
  4. hairy_apple

    hairy_apple Member

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    Not limitations on the main battery... other then what you can stuff into a given ship. Anythig over 3".

    What do you mean you increase the point value?
     
  5. buttsakauf

    buttsakauf Admiral (Supporter)

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    Ships are assigned point value based on a list of criteria. See the following link to the NTXBG technical appendix.

    https://ntxbg.org/documents/NTXBG_Technical_Appendix.pdf

    Generally it is only advisable to arm what is your most effective weapon (i.e. main battery on a battleship or the torpedoe tubes on a destroyer)
    Das Butts
     
  6. Brad F

    Brad F Member

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    Thanks guys. Maybe one day I can build one but definitely not for a first model!
     
  7. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    As a WWCC member, I can say that we used to have a limit on main battery guns, but it was removed several years ago. Unfortunately, the history of the club is shrouded in mystery and legend, so I can't be too sure how the limit was established. Apparently, it was to limit the damage that models were taking. I always thought it was odd, since the guns were so unreliable at the time.
     
  8. hairy_apple

    hairy_apple Member

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    Back when I first joined about 1997 or so, the reason seemed to be to give people a reason to build smaller ships instead of just massive battleships with tons of guns. To ballance things out a little more. Under the limits most heavy cruiser were still able to be fully armed. I think that way too you didn't end up with everyone building whateve ship had the most speed and the most guns (Iowa) and got more varied ships.. since they were ALL limited to 6 main guns.

    I like that the limits are gone, however I do notice a lot less varried battleships and hardly any cruisers left other then torpedo cruiser... so it does seem like it worked for that reasoning. Still, I think it it's better to have all the guns armed. I feel it makes the big battleships a lot scarier of a thing to attack then they used to be. The thought of 8 guns on the Frenchies and 9 on the Rodney all pointing at my little destroyers makes me think twice about attacking battleships...
     
  9. gunner250

    gunner250 Active Member

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    does anyone know what size bb the USS Baltimore Heavy Cruiser would use?
     
  10. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

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    3/16" 4 sec. rate of fire.

    Beaver
     
  11. gunner250

    gunner250 Active Member

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    thank you you wouldent happen to know the lenth on it would you of the ship?
     
  12. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

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    1/44 56.17" long, 5.83" wide. :)

    Beaver
     
  13. gunner250

    gunner250 Active Member

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    thanks again
     
  14. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

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    No problem. :)

    Beaver
     
  15. gunner250

    gunner250 Active Member

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    think it will be a good first ship
     
  16. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    Good first ship? Absolutely not. I'd say any heavy cruiser is a terrible first ship for big gun. A battleship will give you everything a heavy cruiser gives you but puts in a package that is easier to work with and will get you right into the real action. I personally think the USS South Dakota is an ideal first ship, if you want a gunboat. Lets compare.

    USS Baltimore:
    13,600 tons displacement
    673' 5" long
    70' 10" wide
    26' 10" draft
    6" armor belt => 3/32" balsa armor
    3x3 8" main battery => 3/16" ball bearing (.1875")
    6x2 5" secondary battery => .177" ball bearing
    4 shaft, 1 rudder
    33 knots

    USS South Dakota
    35,000 tons displacement
    680' long
    108.2' wide
    36.3' draft
    12.2" armor belt => 1/8" balsa armor
    3x3 16" main battery => 1/4" ball bearing (.25")
    10x2 5" secondary battery => .177" ball bearing
    4 shaft, 2 rudder (parallel)
    28 knots

    Just looking at the length, the SoDak is only about half an inch longer than Baltimore, but more than three inches wider and almost an inch deeper. You'll need the same size shelf to store both boats and the same size car to take both to the pond, but Sodak has much more internal space. That extra space gives you room to more easily fit in equipment. You don't know how valuable that extra space is, even for an experienced modeller. If Baltimore and SoDak were battling to see which was the better beginner ship, SoDak just dropped a nuclear bomb with that extra space. There is nothing Baltimore can do for a beginning builder that can make up for it's lack of space.

    All rotating cannons use basically the same design, you simply need to use different size barrels and drill a couple holes at a different size. You can struggle to fit cannons into a heavy cruiser, but they fit very comfortably in a battleship. The battleship can also fit larger magazines and CO2 bottle, with room left on the side for larger batteries. Baltimore will need to be a very clean internal layout, with little room for rookie mistakes. SoDak gives plenty of space to fit equipment and to get your whole hand and tools inside for maintenance (and to get that pesky nut you dropped inside).

    Tactically speaking, the Sodak has bigger guns (with bigger magazines and bottle) and thicker armor. Simply put, SoDak is a battleship, Baltimore is not. As a rookie, you need a battleship to survive your mistakes on the battlefield. Everything from the armor to the displacement to the extra pump gives you more time to have fun battling and reduces the time spent sitting a battle out as your boat dries.

    Battleships range in speed from 25 knots up to around 33 knots. This means that Baltimore can be caught by some of the faster battleships (Bismark, Scharnhorst). Baltimore has teeth, but no matter how hard she fights, the battleship will win in the end. The other major threat is torpedo boats, sailing at 36+ knots and armed with three 1/4" torpedo cannons aimed at the waterline a couple inches away. Baltimore's single rudder and long length make it harder to perform a maneuver to counter the attack. Worse, Baltimore won't have a depression servo to aim the guns at a torpedo boat that does manage to get in close. 28 knot puts SoDak right in the middle of the battleship spectrum, and her twin rudders help when she wants to rumble in a small area. She can also return fire to any torpedo boat, coming out at least even, possibly swapping a nine ball broadside for three.

    Ultimately, the Baltimore is more trouble than building a battleship, but you get something that won't be able to hold up in combat like a battleship. I highly recommend the South Dakota as a first build. I'd suggest building an unarmed cargo boat first, to learn construction techniques and to get a boat on the water (even if its a target). The second boat should be a warship, either a torpedo boat (a large destroyer or light cruiser armed with single shot torpedoes) or a battleship. Torpedo boats are much simpler to build, battle, and maintain than a boat with rotating, reloading cannons. They are a lot of fun for the money and time you will spend on them. Of course, battleships are the reason most people join the hobby.
    Despite what I've said here, bobody is going to require a certain build order, nor is anyone going to require you build more than one boat. The one thing you must always remember is that this hobby is about fun, so you should build and battle the boat you want. If you're dead set on Baltimore, you have a rocky road ahead of you, but it is doable.
     
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  17. gunner250

    gunner250 Active Member

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    there is no clubs and i will probably be allowed to only build one ship do you know where to get a south Dakota hull for not too much?
     
  18. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

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    The best way to get a cheap hull is to build one yourself. If you want a fiberglass hull, Battler's Connection has them. http://battlersconnection.com/html/southdakota.html

    Gascan, I've been under the impression that the Lutzow class pocket battleship are good starter boats as well. Are they as good of a choice as I thought?

    Beaver
     
  19. gunner250

    gunner250 Active Member

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    i wood love to to have a Missouri too is there a special kind of fiber glass you gotta use to make one?
     
  20. KeriMorgret

    KeriMorgret Facilitator RCWC Staff Vendor

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    The discussion about what's the best ship should be in its own thread. It'll be helpful to know your budget, building skills, access to tools, and ruleset you'll be using as well.