looking into the hobby

Discussion in 'Great Lakes Attack Squadron (GLAS)' started by wdodge0912, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    Hello there!

    I'm interested in what it takes to get into this hobby. I saw a thing a few years ago at an RC swap meet and thought this was a cool thing to do. That was when I was into racing RC cars though, and never really looked into it. It's been a few years, and I have gotten out of racing from a lack of time due to a schedule that doesn't work for the late nights/early mornings of the race track I would go to, and that my race buddies all kind of quit as well. I've still got a few off-road cars and a ton of parts laying around, but probably nothing that would work for this.

    I have a few questions though?

    With the rules (ircwcc) it says cannons must shoot the .177 metal BB's, I take it these battles happen more in a pool or some kind of custom built arena? I was thinking of building one and testing it out on the local lake (and perhaps battling my race buddies if they gets into as well) but I was thinking of using the bio-degradable airsoft pellets, but a system like that wouldn't fit into the rules. Any specific reasons why it's metal BB's being used and not something bio-degradable? (not being an environment nut here, just figured bio-degradable could just be left if they miss and sink to the bottom of a lake, less clean up). I did see how some of the cannons are built doing some research, so I do see how the cannons are built for it and how a metal BB would probably work better. it could also probably be due to how much energy would be transferred, as I could see a metal BB being able to take more force and also deliver it more to the ship hull, allowing it to pierce the ship it's hitting. I was just curious why this was the choice, and if perhaps something with an airsoft pellet could be used in place?

    Also, I was looking at the ship list there and really I couldn't find anything I wanted to build. Not that the list isn't big enough, but I don't know too much about ships, and I wouldn't really know how to model one, or how easy would one be to build. I also really do not have a preference of what I would want to build. I would want to stay as cheap as possible, as I would probably have to sell a RC car to start getting into this (the wife approval odds on a new hobby isn't great, especially since I built a new high end PC back in November, and have also bought a few other toys since then). What ship would be the easiest and least costly to build and set up for battle? and how much does one of these usually cost to build? I know I have motors I can use, and possibly some speed controls, but they would all be old brushed slow stuff. I'd have to test them out first. Also with controls, what transmitter would be a decent one for a decent price?
     
  2. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    Ahoy wdodge, welcome aboard!

    The reason we use metal bbs instead of biodegradable airsoft pellets is exactly the opposite of what you mentioned. Metal bbs will sink to the bottom of the pond, and will rust away over the course of a month or two. Airsoft pellets float, and at the end of a battle the pond would be covered with brightly colored plastic pellets that usually take 6 months to a year to decompose. Throw in further complications with underwater penetrating power, cannon manufacturing, etc. the 0.177" bbs make a lot more sense.

    Your best bet for a successful start in this hobby is to contact your nearest club. Come to a few battles, attend a few build sessions, and see the boats in person. A lot of stuff makes more sense when you see it in person, plus you can ask more questions and get faster responses in person.
     
  3. WillCover

    WillCover -->> C T D <<-- Captain (Supporter)

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    We battle in Saranac on a private pond
    ... come see a battle,
    bb do disappear(rust)
    ...come to a battle
    there are usually boats for sail on here
    ...but come to a battle and talk to locals first
    :)
    but if someone named KAS contacts you don't answer!!

    ...just kidding:laugh:
     
  4. WillCover

    WillCover -->> C T D <<-- Captain (Supporter)

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    Are these the criminals you met at the event ?[​IMG]
     
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  5. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    This is Kas
    I am the good looking guy on the right.
    Cruisers are the cheapest / easiest to build
    Battlers connection.com - is where you could buy a hull
    There are also boats available on-line
    Kas
     
  6. aleMI

    aleMI Active Member

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    Welcome
    Strikemodels.com is also another site where you can buy hulls. Strike is in the process of shutting down so you may have to email them first regarding what hulls are still available. Echoing what Kas said, cruisers are the cheapest and easiest to build. Recommended cruisers for beginners are the "Class 3"cruisers, which include the Northampton, Brooklyn, Cleveland. Only 2 guns and a pump, fairly simple and relatively cheap while big enough to assure an easier build. Lutzow, Hipper, and Des Moines are also good beginners cruisers, but since they can carry a max of 3 guns, will be slightly more expensive (but heavier armed of course too).

    Costs depends on lots of factors, but ballpark is $750-1000 when all is said and done, including construction materials, batteries, radio, etc. There's a thread around here detailing how it can be done for $500, but I think that may be a stretch.
    Hobbyking.com has some radios and transmitters that are fairly cheap. Here's one for example: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-tgy-i6-afhds-transmitter-and-6ch-receiver-mode-2.html

    Give Kas or WillCover a message. Kas was the first guy I talked to when I first started.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  7. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    By the way I just noticed in this picture,
    you do not need a mustache to join.;);):laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  8. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure who was there, but that was the swap meet. I know it was at least a couple years ago, as I didn't go to this years meet, as I was working that day.

    I think I'm going to try to go and watch a battle first. My fiancée has family over in Ionia, so that would give her an excuse to come along with as well. (I'll go with her to see her family if she comes with me to a battle)

    I take it that some of the guns on these things aren't functional and are purely cosmetic? looking at the Northhampton, it has 3 guns in the main batteries. I am assuming here, but the middle one would be the one that fired and the other 2 just dummies? (I'm not sure if I'm using the right terminology, I'm not very knowledgeable on ships. I am more of a tank guy)

    with that, what are the types on the ship list? like what is a PDN? just looking though them and see a ton of these variations, but I don't know what they are.

    EDIT: I think I figured out PDN, which is pre-dreadnaught. I was looking at the USS Mississippi. Brings ups the point of the multiple guns in 1 turret, how would that work with this ship, as it has 2?

    2nd EDIT: Do you guys follow the IRCWCC rules to a T, or perhaps a ship built before the 1905 cutoff would be allowed?
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  9. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    As a side note, duck hunters use steel shot instead of lead. (better for the environment)
     
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  10. aleMI

    aleMI Active Member

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    Yep, some guns are purely cosmetic. For example, Northampton will usually have 2 cannons, both in the rear turret facing straight back. All the barrels in the two front turrets are dummies. Usually in this hobby stern guns are preferred over bow guns since the bow slopes upward, limiting your line of fire. There's also battle tactic reasons too.

    Types of ships can be divided into destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships. Descriptions below are VERY VERY generalized overviews.

    -Destroyers (DD)- Usually carry 1 cannon, and are the fastest ships on the water. Too small and complicated for 1st time builders. Best left for experienced builders.

    -Cruisers (CA and CL) are fairly fast and mostly run and gun type ships, and are limited to cannons facing either forward or backward. Side mounts, that is, cannons that are facing to the sides, are not allowed on cruisers or destroyers (More about sidemounts written below). Good beginner cruisers are those that have 3 or 3.5 battle units.

    -Battlecruisers (BC)- Mix of run and gun and "slugger" type ships. Most allow for 3 guns and 1 full sized pump. Battlecruisers are usually the best for beginners, as they tend to be still relatively easier to build and can carry sidemounts. Sidemounts are able to be pointed sideways and downward, allowing for hits below the waterline. Sidemounts are really what's used to actually sink ships. They are more capable then cruisers as a result, and more fun in my opinion, but also more expensive. Good battlecruisers for beginners include Derfflinger, Von der Tann, Invincible.

    -Battleships (BB)- These are usually class 5 and up. Meaning they can carry 4 guns and 1 pump. The biggest battleships can carry 7 guns and a pump. Battleships are the most capable in terms of offensive power but are also big, lending you to be a more juicy target. Battleships vary in their speed, and go anywhere from 24-28 seconds. Needs skill and building experience to get right. I'm working on/off on my California, which is a class 5 bb with 5.5 battle units. Definitely a more complicated build for a beginner, hence why I also picked up a battle ready cruiser.

    And of course there's PDN's, which can also carry sidemounts, and are smaller then BC's and BB's, so less target area. Downside is they're also going to be among the slowest ships.

    The Mississippi has 3.5 units, meaning you can allocate 3 guns for it and .5 unit pump. So you can do 2 guns in the rear turret and 1 sidemount in the bow turret. With this setup, both barrels in the stern are "real" barrels, and 1 barrel in the bow turret is a dummy.

    Agreed that seeing a battle first hand is the best. Much easier to explain the hobby in person.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
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  11. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, especially with the more I ask questions, new ones form, or the more I read the rules, the more questions I have.

    Like do the guns not rotate any during battle? I see there are rules for limits (15 degrees left/right, 20 degrees down, 0 up) , but is there a remote adjustment system that's used, or would it be to complex and costly for the little bit to be useful, at least for the left right?

    I like the Mississippi, Des Moines, or the Northampton. mainly the Mississippi or Des Moines as they get 3.5.
     
  12. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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  13. aleMI

    aleMI Active Member

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    Yep, rotates tend to be complicated. It also adds to the list of components that can fail during battle. Since fast gun format (what GLAS uses) tends to have a quick battle pace over the other formats, it is easier to "aim" guns using maneuvering over turret rotating. Kas's video above illustrates this well. The vast majority of battlers use fixed cannons. Mississippi and Des Moines are good. Mississippi has a small hull so it may be a little challenging to fit all the components in but it does have a wide hull to help with things. For Des Moines usual setup is a .5 pump and triple cannons in the stern turret.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  14. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    well, if it's not the Des Moines or Mississippi, it would probably be the St Louis. the class 2 ship, for cost reasons, as it would only be 2 guns, one in front and one in back. and a half unit pump. not sure how it is size wise.

    another one i'd like to build (if/when I have a couple under my belt) would be the HMS Orion. I'd go fancy though with elevation and rotation, just so I could have a 2 rear and 2 front cannons, and have them able to rotate to the sides using a 180 degree servo for rotation


    seems there isn't a lot of destroyers out there though, being they are all 1s. if they got 1.5 units and could have side firing guns, I think 1/2 unit spurt cannons would/could be used in place of a torpedo launcher. could split it even more and use a couple of the 1/4 unit spurts. so 2 1/4 spurt cannons firing out the side, and a half unit main gun in the rear. just a thought
     
  15. NickMyers

    NickMyers Admin RCWC Staff

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    If cost of arming is an issue, go with a class 4 or 5 and simply not use all of your units. Add additional as you can afford. It is a lot easier and more forgiving to build a roomy hull in class 5 than a skinny class 2
     
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  16. rcaircraftnut

    rcaircraftnut Well-Known Member

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    Smaller ships aren't allowed side mounts due to their inherent tenancy to roll in a turn aiming the guns above the limit of level. Due to the inherent danger that poses they are not allowed and probably never will be.
     
  17. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    gotcha. what if they are at a very extreme angle? just a thought, to get more destroyers into the game. a 5 shot (1/4 unit) spurt gun aimed low enough that when rolling during a turn they don't exceed the above horizon rule. just would make it that they have to be right next to a ship and maybe even having to use the roll to hit the ship they are shooting at. this has probably already been discussed somewhere on how to get some kind of torpedo system in to make destroyers a little bit better. anyways, i'm not planning to build one though.


    I guess now i don't have too many more questions, at least until i can get to a battle. one what is being used for batteries? just lipo batteries in a waterproof shotproof box or something else that's a bit safer, like NIMH? i do have a good multi type dual battery charger, so i'm hoping i don't have to buy something new. I have a few lipo's as well, a few 2s and 1 3s. hopefully i can re-use them, but i know how unsafe a lipo can be (i was a good 2 foot away when someone else was charging one on NIMH mode and overcharged it and it blew up), so i completely understand with shooting at them why they wouldn't be used
     
  18. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    A lot of people just use Lead-Acid Gel Cell batteries (SLA), especially for larger ships where weight isn't a concern. They're big, tough, and very forgiving of abuse. NiMH used to be popular for smaller ships, but nowadays has been largely replaced by LiPo and LiFe batteries. LiPo is nice for smaller boats, because of its high discharge characteristics and excellent energy density, but it is a very delicate type of battery that requires protection from battle damage, over-discharge, and other hazardous conditions. LiFe batteries have started to show up in bigger warships over the past few years. They have nearly as good energy density as LiPo cells and a nice flat discharge curve, plus they are vastly tougher than LiPo batteries. The trade-off is that they have a relatively low discharge rate, so you need a lot of them to keep up with the power demands of a warship.

    re: spurt guns, what you've described sounds very similar to Big Gun format torpedo-boats. Having built and battled a few of those myself, I can say that no amount of downward angle will counteract the rocking of a small ship. Big Gun torpedo-boats get away with it by only firing on the downward roll, and the shot is clear of the barrel before recoil can point the cannon above horizontal. The same cannot be said for Fast Gun style spurt cannons. Sure, the first round or two will be aimed downward, but you will quickly find your shots heading skyward.
     
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  19. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

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    I've rolled my class 3 cruiser clear on her side in a hard turn before. Smaller ships are just as bad, and worse. The only way you could assure the gun barrels never go above the horizon is to have them point 90* over the side, at which point they're useless.
     
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  20. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    In fleet to fleet naval battle destroyers have a very low effectiveness in real life.
    that is the reason they have less guns, no down angle but have more speed. ( this adds some realism to our hobby)
    If you where trying to do a scale tank battle you would not bring a jeep.:bang::bang:
     
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