MWC Top 10 Elite Ships

This is one area that I think the MWC rules are much better than the IRCWCC rules.

Trying to write a rule that regulates "rooster tails" seems like it would be pretty hard to do well. It really shows how much water you need to move to get a 35-40lb boat moving at 24sec. (and how effective the rudders are at redirecting the majority of that flow sideways in a turn)

Of course the other way to look at it is that this isn't scale naval combat so who cares if it looks "realistic" or not. It is a modern game, played with RC model boats, where we try to sink eachother, the rules are there to try and make it as "fair" as possible while realizing that some ships are always going to be better than others.

 

I’m pretty sure that’s where I started. If it’s really the way you feel, why the opposition to just saying all ships are allowed 2 rudders?
Keith

 

Oh I don’t know about that.
I can think of a couple right of the top of my head.
Propellers.
1. Driven Propellers shall be limited to 3 of 4 blade propellers with minimum pitch of 27 deg.
2. Maximum Propeller size allowed for a ship shall be determined by class as follows:

7 2”
6 1.75”
5 1.5”
4 and lower 1.25”

Batteries
1. Battery amperage shall be limited by AH by class as follows:
7 36ah
6 24ah
5 20ah
4 and lower 10ah

I am not an engineer, so these numbers are just best guesses. But, I think that would pretty much end the silliness.
Keith

 

I suspect that those rules would be much less effective than you think at regulating rooster tails but for the sake of the discussion...

Prop limits like that would have the side effect of nerfing pretty much every one/three prop ship (not sure if that is what you intended or not), reducing variety which is what this was all about originally. (This would also turn into an axis/allied issue as axis have more 3 shaft ships that traditionally run one prop for performance.) So not only does it probably not solve the problem you were trying to solve (rooster tails) it would add in another whole set of "imbalances".

Ah is meaningless without voltage. 10ah at 6V is VERY different than 10ah at 24V. (180Wh different to be exact)

If you want to tell people exactly what batteries they have to use in each class/ship you could do that but that has even less of a chance of passing than a rule doing something to help one rudder ships. (that would also pretty much kill anyone trying to run new/different battery technologies which seems bad for the advancement of the hobby)

We're full of silly, trying to to outlaw that is a losing battle.

As for giving all ships dual rudders, it would completely change the balance that the rules sets currently have, (and they are actually relatively balanced, not perfect but rather good) and doing all the work to re-balance them after that change sounds like a major PITA that would leave us in more or less the same position we are now. Some ships would be better than others, people tend to build the ships that are better, people would complain about not enough variety while only being willing to build the ship that gives them the most advantages. Just the ships would change.

If we're going to do it with rudders lets do it with props, guns, pumps, hull shape, speed, etc...

We can all build the exact same boat and battle it against a bunch of other boats exactly the same, that is if you're willing to sacrifice all variety.

 

You are right.....
I am throwing in the towel.
Hey when we run out of BB's we can just prop wash them into submision
Keith

 

I think all ships going to two rudders would be silly, but trying out giving all ships the silly bonus might work. Then it is easy to return to the old ways if it doesn't work out.

 

Keith, one thing you're overlooking re the Bis rooster tail: In order to drive that big a ship at 24 seconds (with two drag props to boot!) requires a hefty amount of thrust from only one prop. When you then deflect that thrust between two rudders off to one side......

The 4-prop boats like SD don't have to drive their props as hard to achieve the same speed, plus they don't deflect 100% of the thrust when turning, so no fancy rooster. But they do taste like chicken.

 

The thing that people forget is that part of this hobby is knwing the strengths and weaknesses of different ships and maximizing your strenghts while maximizing their weaknesses. It's like WW2 fighters. If you have a Wildcat, don't try to turn with a Zero; dive away. Some ships are Shindens. Some ships are Brewster Buffalos.

 

I was going to leave this alone, but OK we can crack another cold one and continue the debate
Let’s bring this back full circle to subject of this topic. I will maintain that after captain skill, maneuverability is the most important attribute in a boat followed closely by gun placement options (good sidmounts / haymaker).
For the record ONLY axis boats have 3 shaft boats. You all have been explaining the HUGE advantage that gives.
What are the current best of class boats?: In order…..
Fast Battle Ship:
Negato Axis
Bizmark Axis
Large drop off
North Carolina Allied
Vanguard Allied
Slugger:
Baden Axis
Westfallen Axis
Konig Axis
Viribus Unitis Axis
Large drop off
Q. E. Allied

Where are the (best of class) allied boats? :blink:
What is the “most feared” Allied Boat?
How are the allies even competitive at Nats?
Why are you all afraid to consider a rule change that might bring a few Allied boats into the conversation for best of class?
Keith

 

I think you'll find that the "best" boat depends greatly on who is driving it. As for your assesment about which boats are best, that list would seem totally inaccurate 10 years ago. Back then, NC's were perceived to be the "best" ship. Bismarcks were dogs and Nagato's were adequate. The thing that changed wasn't the ships. The thing that changed was the tactics. For a long time, massive stern gun barrages were seen as the way to kill people quickly. Very few Axis boats can mount tripple sterns and none can mount quads. Currently, the deadliest Axis ships have no stern guns, but you need to be a good driver to use them or you'll wind up very dead.
Tactics. Skill. These trump the other factors.

 

The best rules changes are those backed by facts, not perception. The rudder size rule has been there for decades. My guess for why is that smaller rudders have less effect on turning than bigger rudders and the 50% bump is an effort to make twin small rudders work as well as a single rudder twice the size. My suggestion to you is to do testing and gather data. Eliminate the other variables. Find out how much force is generated by each and show your work. Afterward, a rule change MAY be warranted if the facts uphold your hypothisis.

 

Professor,
You typed a lot, but didn’t answer a single question.
Give me your opinion

Keith

 

Opinions aren't facts. Only facts matter.

 

Um......
OK....
State the relevant facts.

 

Hmmm, I thought I had.
The most feared Allied boat is one driven by someone who understands how to use it effectivly. Same goes for the Axis. Put a rookie in a good Nagato and he's still not scary.
Currently, the Allied captains that are most effective are driving QE's and NC's.
The "effective" Vanguards are using the construction rules to the edge of legality to be short, light, and still have reduced target area. They are also using a known flaw in the MWC reverse rules to be fast in reverse. They have bulkeads with holes that allow water to flow more slowly than the pumps can remove it. On top of that, they are using 1/8" solenids that double the airflow from their guns and cause massive damage.
Do those things to any ship and it will be more "deadly".
The devil is in the details.

 

So let’s be clear here. I am not committed to Allied.
10 years ago. Last time I built a boat I wanted a 6 unit Battle ship. My choice at the time came down to Negato and North Carolina. I chose the North Carolina. To do it again, I would build the Nagato. I miss the haymaker.
I built and ran a Westfallen for a year and really enjoyed that type of battling. I didn’t enjoy the VERY small space to work in of the Westfallen, so I wanted to build something slightly larger. I don’t want another 60” boat due to my current small car.
The vast majority of our local clubs fleet is Axis so I thought it would be fun to build Allied. Not required because we battle flag – no flag.
SO…
Correct my facts.
There are only (5) dual rudder Allied boats under a class 6
Q.E. Only Allied boat I would consider under current rules.
Iron Duke Similar to Q.E. but lose ½ unit (second haymaker option might make me take second look):ermm:
Erin 28 sec, and won’t turn with Axis elite. No fiberglass hull
Bellerophen 28 sec, and won’t turn with Axis elite. No fiberglass hull
Invincible 26 sec, won’t turn with Axis elite, No casement protection.
(1) One Worth building (yes that’s opinion)
I started looking at other Allied hulls, the Tennessee / West Virginia hull is interesting, but a 3” rudder isn’t going to cut it. You need BIG props with BIG drag props, and a rudder that will deflect water flow.
Vanguard was thrown out there as an example of a single rudder boat. It gets 6” compared to 3”(FACT). No further comparison needed.
Agreed captain makes the biggest difference, but assuming same captain skills. It looks to me that Axis boats are the cream of the crop both in fast battle ships and sluggers. Given current technology and rules.
Keith