So here is a thought. Let's just say that it was decided that the next plug/mold/hulls would be for the "R" class battleships. And that you could find 5-6 folks to purchase the original run of hulls, in order to make it all possible. But instead of commiting the manufacturer to making sure that the first run of hulls be delivered asap to the financiers of the project. Why not allow the manufacturer to sell the first run of hulls to others, in order to further support the project, as long as they can get the financiers their hulls in a reasonable period of time. Perhaps 12 months, or something like that. The theory here is that the folks that would like to see the hulls produced, might already have enough projects on their hands to keep them busy until they get their hulls. At the same time. The original group of folks could also spend the time between financing the project, and the arival of the hulls to obtain plans, and start constructing the ther stuff, like superstructure, internal-componants and such. Which would facilitate getting their ship on the water after receiving the hulls, so that they can show off the product. Mikey
I keep hoping for an HMS Erin hull. I think that it would be the best Allied dreadnought you can build, hands down.
Ralph Coles started plugs for the Erin and the Agincourt in 1997 or 1998 but abandoned both projects after making the keels and cross-sections. Emails to small gun organizations had elicited no expressions of interest in either hull. The Erin hull would have been his first with multiple casemate guns in hull and superstructure and he incorporated them in the plug framework, making the casemates out of dowels. The hull would have included the first level of the superstructure aft of the forecastle. Ralph kept both plug frameworks for several years then gave them away. I got my hands on the Agincourt frames and keel around 2002 but by then they were too warped to use. I have excellent plans for Agincourt and was willing to start from scratch but there was still no interest in the hull. Ralph might agree to make a mold for the Agincourt but it would have to be commissioned (like his excellent SMS Seydlitz hull mold was). He charges $10 per hr but many people have no idea how much time is required to build a plug. Making the mold from the plug is a relatively quick process. It cost me about $500 each to commission the molds for the HMAS Albatross and the Russian CL Profintern/Krasni Krim. Erin would cost more due to it's greater complexity. Bob
Mikey, You're right about the Seydlitz hulls. I've seen the one Ralph kept for himself and it was superb. The mold and several hulls were commissioned by someone in the IRCWCC (David ??) several years ago while Ralph was living in British Columbia. The plan was that the buyer would sell a few ready made hulls and then make more. I'm not aware of any being produced and like you have never seen one on the water. That would be a great mold for Strike Models to buy. I'd like to have one. Re future hull production I'll be making plugs (and in some cases molds) for hulls that both Strike and I want. Ralph is willing to make plugs and/or molds for anyone if the compensation is adequate. That way it'll be up to the person doing the commissioning to make and market the hulls. Bob
I too have seen one of the Seydlitz hulls, and they are beautiful. I'm truly surprised that nobody builds them. As for the Erin, I imagine the lack of small gun interest comes from not actually looking at everything it brings to the table. While I can understand the people who only care about bottom line performance not being interested in Agincourt, Erin has nothing to not like. She's only 559 ft long, 91(!) feet wide (best length to beam ratio of just about any WW1 allied dreadnought) 5 turrets including 2 aft, AND has twin rudders/4 shafts. She's just not very well known, and so tends to get over looked. When you look at what she does have, it makes you salivate wishing there was a nice fiberglass hull available.
Erin is slow at 28 sec and is only 4.5 units. Slow ships have fallen out of favor. Agincourt only has 1 rudder and is really long. It would be out turned by other ships it's speed. I'd rather have a ID or QE, where did this mold go by the way? Same problems for Seydlitz. Molke is shorter and turns better. Derflinger is faster. Being stuck in the middle hurts it, the extra wieght and bbs over Moltke are not enough to make it better.
In the IRCWCC and Treaty Seydlitz is equal in speed or faster then the Derfflinger. It's only the MWC that screws the Seydlitz over. In a 1v1, Erin should hand ID or QE their butts. The extra 25 rounds for ID and 50 rounds for QE would probably end up bouncing off my casemates. If the Erin loses that fight, it's because the captain screwed up and got impatient. If the Axis were running a large amount of small dreadnoughts like Nassau and Baden, I'd take the Erin any day. Set her up with a stern gun in Y turret, sidemount in X turret and sidemount in Q turret to form a death Y and be patient enough to not try and chase people. Being the first one to break a trend means you get the free year to rape and pillage doing whatever it is you're doing before someone else copies you next year. Just because something has fallen out of favor, doesn't mean it's bad...it simply means another idea has caught everyone's eye. If someone built an Erin and then pillaged people with it, there would be 4 of them the year after. Of course, if you're going to break trend, you had better set your stuff up right and have a good idea of what you want to do with it, or else you'll be an example as to why it's not in favor.
I got old photos of Ralph's Erin and Agincourt when he displayed them at a 96/97 show. Erin would match a baden no problem.
Bringing an Erin to battle would be similar to my introduction of the Espana Class to NABS in 1998. The Espana was slower than any other ship in the fleet (except for my British monitors) and must have looked like easy pickings. It was quite short (same length as the South Carolina Class predreadnoughts) and though single ruddered could out-turn faster ships. It had 10 secondary gun casemates per side, and embrasures fore and aft for a lot of extra impenetrable area. After a couple of battles no one wanted to tangle with the Espana at close quarters so the enemy stayed away from it. Being so slow Espana ended up chasing opponents and hardly ever got to engage them. There were no suitable (slow)opponents in the NABS fleet so Espana was sold and replaced by the faster HMS Warspite (the best combatant I've built). I can see Erin getting into similar difficulties with her slow speed and inability to catch opponents who want to avoid her. Bob
Marty, I sold Warspite nearly 2 years ago, being not completely happy with it and thinking I could do a better job on a replacement. I might replace her with the QE or Valiant. Ralph and I were talking about new hull projects last night and agreed a hull for QE and Valiant after reconstruction in early WWII would be worthwhile. Ralph has a good set of Polish plans. We're concerned about difficulty sheeting the bulges if accurately modelled. They need 3 stringers to give enough support to the balsa unless we eliminate the steps and round the shape like Ralph did with his first QE mold. I have the Anatomy of the Ship series book on Dreadnought and have long considered making the hull but there was no interest when I proposed making the mold a few years back. I don't like 28 sec. ships after my experience with Espana. The reason I sold it and built Warspite was Espana's 28 sec. speed and inability to catch and engage most opponents. Ralph and I talked about the Erin but it would be a very complex hull to make due to the casemates and Ralph is not willing to spend the time on it unless it was likely to sell well. There's no indication it would, being another slow ship. Bob
An R class might be a decent seller too, Bob. She's the same length as the Iron Duke but has 5.5 units. She's got 2 inline rudders so would get bonus rudder area over the similar length USN "Big 5", with the same turret arrangement. I know I personally have always loved the R class. That's just how a battleship should LOOK.
Would the R class turn better than the QE due to being slightly shorter? If so would that make her as good as a QE class. I think it might sell as the allies need more ships to counter the Nagato that just NC and Sodak.
That's the beauty of the Iron Duke really Chris. She's shorter then the QE and has twin rudders so will DEFINITELY out turn a QE, at the cost of only 25 bb's (5.0 units) That said, the way some guys have been getting single rudder ships to turn lately (the Richelieu drivers...I have seen Mike M's at a treaty event, and it turns really really well. You'd be surprised) I think that you might be able to get an R to out turn a QE if you spent some time working on using the right motors, props and getting them positioned correctly.
Remember, the R's were never extensively modernized, while the QEs got some pretty radical bulges which help their length to beam ratio significantly.
The R Class all lost their small forward rudder after WWI so were not twin ruddered after the 1920s. All five had bulges of similar size to those on the QE Class in the 1930s but they were of two distinct types. For that reason a bulged hull could represent only 2 or 3 ships of the 5. I favour the smoothly curving bulge of the Royal Oak and one other (Ramillies??), that almost reached the height of the 6" casemate batteries. The other ships had bulges similar to those on the QEs which are much harder to sheet if accurately reproduced. Bob
I'd rather have the slab sides with extra rudder area (not to mention more names to choose from) over the increased length to beam ratio.
I think this class would be a good one to consider as a new project because it would for the most part, satisfy the desires of all that are showing an interest in it. For those that feel the need to have the hull configuration (era) match the ship's name, then they will have two-three names to choose from. On the other hand. Those that want to choose from all of the class names, but are not so critical about the hull bulges and such being accurate for their particular ship will be happy as well. Just my thoughts. Mikey
