RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Under MWC rules, technically if I give the Admiral a gun, it gets no pump. I was talking with Brian K last nightand we decided that if there was room and weight, to try something that could be used in a future rule change proposal... a zero-unit pump. A one unit pump has a 1/8" outlet, and a half-unit pump has a 3/32" outlet. I propose a'zero unit pump' that can only be used on .5 unit warships, that has a 1/16" outlet (next size down from 3/32"). I propose it based on: If you can actually build a half unit warship, arm it, AND still have room and weight left over for a pump, you doggone well deserve one. Also, without being able to mount a pump and a gun, why include half-unit ships on the ship list? So, my thinking is: either give them a tiny pump that they can use, or bump the half-unit ships to 1 unit. Bumping half-unit ships to 1 unit would increase their rudder size, so if we want to avoid that... a zero-unit pump makes sense. So, I will test the 'zero-unit pump' in Region 3 local battles, assuming the other captains are cool with it. I am still being mindful about what you said earlier, Nick, about all-up weight vs scale waterline, so I'm going to have to get ruthless with the weight on the cannon. I'm planning on shaving the brass parts a bit and using properly-rated plastic tubing for the tubing parts. But I would like to fit a pump.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) If you looking to save major weight for this ship why put in a bottle and regulator. See if you can make an expansion tank big enough to fire 25 bbs. Or go even lighter and use a spurt gun with a smaller expantion tank. If you get a rule to split the .5 units into two .25 units that's only 13 bbs, you can do that with a tank. Just put air pressure in it with an externat bottle and regulator.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Some of us had talked back in 2006 about proposing a quarter-unit gun and a quarter-unit pump (we were looking at subs). Maybe I should write something up... I had thought about an accumulator for a spurt gun... maybe I should do some testing on how big it'd have to be to fire 13 rounds.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) I think i might be in favor of that if any ship with a "zero-unit" pump reverts back to the regular "five-minute" rule instead of the "two-minute" rule that tiny ships currently enjoy. Shouldn't a quarter unit gun only get 12 bbs?
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Didn't realize it was only half unit in MWC. IRCWCC gives it a full unit to split, so I've been trying to figure out how to fit a pump in as well. I'd like to go with 2 1/4 unit guns in mine if I could fit them, the IRCWCC rules list specs for them, but don't provide a way to split units down to get them as far as I can tell. I didn't get a chance to load test the hull last night, I'll try to find a few minutes to tape up sides and toss it in the tub tonight to get a better idea of what we can cram in these things without going straight to the bottom.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) I'd rather have a half-unit gun with a no-unit pump and 5 minutes, than 12 or 13 rounds, a quarter-unit pump and 2 minutes. My first thought after reading your post (Chris)was 'I'd hate to write a rule that would force anyone to 5 minutes from 2 minutes', but then more thoughts occurred: 1) I haven't heard of anyone running a half-unit DD in our club, so it such a rule wouldn't affect anyone else (yet). 2) I could word it: Half-unit warships (only) may elect to use a single 'zero unit' pump with a 1/16" restrictor, using a motor no larger than the ship's largest drive motor. Any half-unit warship choosing to use a 'zero unit' pump must wait 5 rather than 2 minutes to leave the water. Half-unit warships that do not use a 'zero unit' pump may call '2 minutes' as usual for class .5 and 1 ships. Or something to that effect, someone with more experience writing rule proposals would probably word it better. It's a good tradeoff, I think. Having the small pump and a 1/2 unit gun makes it more fun to play with, but going to a 5 minute rule makes them less of a problem in Campaign (where you could effectively run out every 2 minutes with a 1/2 unit spurt gun, lather, rinse, repeat, while still enjoying the protection of the pump). With a 5 minute rule they become more like lil tiny cruisers. Fun to play with but not crazy powerful (with their half unit!) .
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Doesn't class 2 and less still get two minutes in MWC? That is the draw of the light cruisers for Campaign ... arm them with twin spurt cannons, launch, shoot, call 2, reload, and do it all over again. Changing the 1/2 unit ship to 5 minutes from 2 would kinda put people off from building them. I like IRC's idea of making .5 unit ships into 1 unit ships. That is really workable and doesn't need additional rules to make the .5 unit ships workable.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) I'm cool with making the .5 unit ships into 1 unit ships; I'm just looking for a solution that will let me fit a gun and a pump, and still keep everyone else (reasonably) happy. If a majority of captains are happy with that, it's elegant and relatively simple to implement. Chris, Bob, any thoughts on the palatability of a rule boosting 0.5 unit ships to 1 unit? Or on the quasi-proposal I wrote above?
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Only class 1 gets the 2 min not 5 min. Bumping all .5 units ships up to 1 unit is not going to fly. "Why should these little guys get to move up. Then we should move ship X up .5 units all the way up the chain." Soon we'll have 6 unit Marylands and 7 unit Bismarks. (That's a little joke). I think adding a split 1/4 gun and 1/4 pump would pass, if it's just allowed for .5 unit ships.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) I agree with Bob, making half unit ships a full unit would be much less likely to pass than a special rule for .5 unit ships. By giving up the two min rule if you use the 1/4 unit pump setup it seems to me that you arent really making your ship more powerful just giving up one advantage for another. Also you'd already be down to 12 bbs (i dont think 13 bbs as a 1/4 unit would look good, sure the difference is tiny but it looks strange on paper) But my rule proposals don't tend to pass. Thats why im an engineer and not a politician... EDIT: Oh and IRCWCC Bismarck is 7 units....apperently they thought it was underpowered at 6.5......go figure
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) I got dinged in 2004 with my z-boat not having a regulator, only had the expansion tank and spurt gun. Logic was MWC rules say all ships must have a regulator. There was also a fear of the ship sitting on the water and building pressure without having a burst disk. I would check with the CD to see if they will allow it, if they do you will have a nascar style ship with a fill tub on the deck for the bb's and a port on the deck for the gas, no reason to open the deck during campaign.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) That does not make sense. Your hose would blow before the tank would. There's no way the presure could build. Unless you put liquid in the tank. I'm just talking air pressure like an other tank down stream from the regulator. If you tried to fill a tank with liquid CO2 that could be very bad.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) I had a clever 2 paragraph explanation of why your Z-boat was/is legal, but remembered that this is my build thread, so I will only say: If your Z-boat was 'illegal' because of a gas expansion concern, then every ship on the water with check-valved accumulators is illegal. And now, I will politely ask everyone to move to the MWC Rules list for this discussion so that I can get back to showing off my destroyer
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Which just may be the first viable .5 unit ship. One for the record books. Thus sayeth the archivist.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Whats the overall length and diameter on that co2 adapter + regulator arrangement? Trying to figure out where that will fit internally from looking at the picture posted.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) It's out in the shop at the moment, but here's a pic I had saved that shows it inside the hull: (the regulator is the thick section on the left) Beside it is a Spektrum microservo that I HOPE will have enough torque to do the job, in a tiny lil servo mount fabbed out of 1/4" ply.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) That eats alot of space up Hope that microservos up to the task, because I've got a pretty similar one that I intend to use for my rudder
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Well, I taped and papered the sides of my hull to provide some water resistance, marked a scale on the side of the hull tossed it in the tub and carefully loaded it. Scale draft should be about 3/4" and was reached at 18oz total (4oz hull weight + 14oz ballast). Max draft (half inch freeboard) was reached at 4oz hull weight + roughly 24 oz of ballast. I say roughly because at this point my 'sheeting' was badly leaking and I cant be sure I was able to eyeball the waterline vs the hull markings fast enough before an apreciable amount of water leaked in. Also another ounce of displace may be gained by noting that balsa sides wont flex in in the same manner as paper and tape will, so youd be able to carry more weight on a true hull form than something concave between every rib set. In conclusion I would say, based off of my rough experiementation, that 28-30oz total weight is the most you can reasonably expect to cram in and not sink at the dock. 24-25 oz is about the most I think I'd try to run with, there just isn't much room for error / taking on water with the minimum freeboard. YMMV
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Outstanding work, Nick! That's valuable knowledge to have. I did have an idea last night, although too late for the Admiral to take advantage of it... under MWC rules, the scale tolerance on beam is 1/8", so if you're careful, you can cut the ribs 1/32" wider on each side than the scale blueprints, which will add a little bit of hull volume. Maybe when I do a Clemson... Let's see... 24 ounces is...680g. Hmm. maybe I'll retrofit some 1/32" strips to the ribs. In anycase, the deck seal will be pretty good. After watching Mike Mangus' Verite go submarine at speed (it is such a cool boat!!) and seeing how tightly he had the decks sealed, I knew I had to do that here. All the decks are getting a thin film of RTV, and the fornt and back decks are getting bolted down. Following Bob's suggestion on the 1/4 unit gun, 1/4 unit pump rule proposal, I will be building her with a 13-shot magazine and a 150psi accumulator with enough gas to shoot 13 shots. That should reduce the weight and space required for the gas system, which will make it more likely that I can fit in a tiny pump. As soon as my experients yield an accum that can hold 13 shots, I'll post the relevant specs on here.
RE: Almirante Villar (Orfey class) Ah Clemsons! With all the Omaha building going on it would be nice to see their little sister on the water too.
