I'm not on my own computer right now, im using a library one at the moment, So i was watching youtube and found the Iowa VS Dutchland Pocket battleship. what Exactly is a pocket battleshop though?
"Pocket Battleship" is termed applied to Dutchland class ships of Germany. They had 6, 11 inch guns. Speed about 26 knots. Armor ~6inches. They were OK against cruisers, but slower. Would have been sunk easly by any real battleship. An Iowa would have blow one out of the water. They are rated as cruisers by most "fast gun" clubs. Probibly on the slow side for the BG clubs.
Pocket battleships were different than cruisers; they outclassed cruisers. The idea of a pocket battleship is it could overpower anything it couldn't outrun. The pocket battleship was created so germany would have a (sort of) "treaty-legal" capital ship.
The problem with them was they were easly out classed by battlecruisers, and fast battleships. Neither which they could out run. If Renown had caught the one in the south Atlantic, it would have been over quick. They were really a ship that should not have been built. They were too slow for commerece raiding, as they could not out run cruisers, and their guns were too large best use against shipping. A ship capible of 33 knots, and 6 inch guns would have been beter for commerce raiding. In the "fast gun" world, they are a bit of an odd ship. So they get classed as a cruiser. If they had been classed as a capital ship, they would have been 4 units, and 26 seconds. Which would have doomed them to instant death from QE and SD class battleships. I belive the term "Pocket Battleship" is not a German one. The Germans classed them as "panzerschiffe" or armored ship. I think they were later reclassed as cruisers.
Specialist is correct. The term "Pocket Battleship" was popularized in the British media based on the gun caliber of 11 inches, which is greater then that of a "treaty" cruiser. The Germans reclassified them as "Heavy Cruisers" shortly after the loss of the Graf Spee to downplay the significance of the loss. While I think they would have been tough opponents for most of the early USN and RN heavy cruisers, the later pre-war USN Heavies (New Orleans and Wichita classes) and even the Brooklyn and St. Louis class light cruisers could have given her an awfully lot to handle. Mike D
I Bible Study With a gentleman who servered in WW2 in the German Kriegsmarine ..I Will ask him about some of these classification debates see what He says ...Respectfully, Raymond G. Bisson
OK after talking with Gerhardt...the Germans submitted the tonnage of ships under weight....reason...Treaty of Versielle...Build a battleship...call it a Battle cruiser...state the tonnage before weapon systems and the such were added....then add the systems later....so it would seem the whole problem of Ship classes in the Kriegesmarine stem from politics...and deception on the part of the German goverment...Respectfully Raymond G.Bisson
Interesting how the Fast Gun clubs classify it as a cruiser, because the Pocket Battleship is a very neat ship in Big Gun combat. It is very popular in my club, because it has 7/32" cannons and reasonably small, lightweight hull. While its not a speed demon, the pocket battleship has proven itself a very difficult target to attack when properly handled. I even got myself sunk by one for approaching the wrong way. It definitely lives up to the term "pocket battleship" because it has battleship-class firepower, in a much smaller package. Of course that smaller package comes at a price, because the "pocket" skippers have one of the highest casualty rates of the club, only falling behind merchants and torpedoboats. Its also interesting how the class's name affects people's battling style. Several skippers refer to their ships as "Deutschlands" while others call them "pocket battleships". The folks who call them "pocket battleships" are much more aggressive, and have more sinks to their credit. Those who call them "Deutschlands" are more cautious and while their kill lists are shorter, they don't end up six feet under very often either.
Taking a look at the statistics of the Deutschlands very clearly shows they are not battleships by any stretch of the imagination. With only a 6 inch armor belt, they were not capable of keeping 8" shells out of their vitals, let alone their own 11" shells. The treaty of Versailles limited replacement "battleships" to 10k tons. This was intended to force the Germans into pre-dread type ships. The Germans very cleverly build precisely the ships that the Washington treaty tried to avoid: super cruisers. The major navies of the world couldn't LEGALLY build anything like them as building anything armed with larger then 8 inch guns was prohibited until 1935, AND after 1935 those ships would have counted against battleship tonnage. Because nobody could match their paper performance (11" guns are more scary then 8" guns), they were pretty hyped. The simple fact is, that while those 11" could hit pretty hard, they could not stand up to 8" gunfire. So if they were to run into a an Allied treaty heavy cruiser, they would more then likely be in a rather bad way, as the 8" ships could shoot faster and generally had more barrels. Graf Spee had the luck to run into one of only 2 Allied cruisers with only 6 8" guns. most had at least 8, and some as many as 10. That's a whole lot more lead in the air at any given time, and it also assist fire control in that there are more splashes to range on. So it's going to come down to who starts hitting first, and you have to give an edge to the guy who can fire faster. If faced with any REAL capital ship then in existence, (BB or BC) they would have been blown clean out of the water. It would be a no-contest type fight. They couldn't even out run the 3 British battle cruisers (4 if you count the fact that Tiger was still in commission when the first PB was designed) let alone out gun them. I personally like the original designation the Germans gave them: Panzershiff (armored ship). That's what I'd call it if I were to run one. They aren't really battleships, battlecruisers or heavy cruisers, but they ARE more closely related to cruisers then battleships. EDIT: As to their performance in fast gun, they are the most popular cruisers I know of. In the IRCWCC they are allowed 3.5 units (I think MWC only 3.0), and most captains arm them with triple bow/stern guns. They can be quite nasty customers when they get a good shot. Mike D
I seem to dissagree with most of you... as usual. 11" guns with the german muzzle velocity meant the PBs could hit the cruisers before presenting itself as a target. Most of the battleships at that time were slower than the PBs, so PBs would simply not engage battleships. I think they are closer to battlecruiser than either battleship or heavy cruiser, I'm not sure why they aren't classified as such. Probably because the 11"s weren't big enough for the brits.
The range advantage was all fine. But the actual difference was pretty minimal. The 11 inch range was ~30k yards. British 8 inch was ~27k yards. Could be the Germans did not put enough elevation on the 11 inch mounts. In any case the range is decided by the faster ship- and cruisers had about 7 knots of speed on the panzerschiffe. Even if they were classed as a battlecruiser, they would still be 4.0 units, and 26 seconds. The speed rating would be pretty fair given their slow speed, and 4.0 units would be pretty generous. If you wanted to, it might be possible to get their class changed to battlecruiser. But I don't think it would be wise, as they would suffer badly from other 26 sec battleships, and battlecruisers. The other 26 sec ships would be much more manuverable.
Fire control of the day didn't really support accurately shooting at the ranges the guns were technically capable of. The record of scoring long range gunnery hit is IIRC 26,400 yds held jointly by Scharnhorst and Warspite. If the Scharnhorst (and Gneisenau) couldn't hit Glorious at more then 26k yards, I seriously doubt that a PB armed with a weaker version of the 11.1 inch gun would be successful in hitting a heavy cruiser (smaller then the carrier Glorious) at greater then 26k yards. Inside 27k as Specialist pointed out, the 8" is in range, so the "range advantage" of the PB is largely an illusion. What's not an illusion is the difference in speed between a treaty heavy cruiser and a PB. The PB was capable of SPRINT speeds of 28 knots (26 was the usual max), but only for very short durations. An Allied treaty cruiser could generally maintain 30+ knots for long periods of time, and thus could close the range, virtually at will. The PBs couldn't even think about escaping or out gunning a true battlecruiser, of which the British had 4 at the time the PBs were designed. As an Allied captain, I wouldn't hesitate to vote to give them an extra 25 rounds and sidemounts to slow them down to 26 seconds. PBs if rated as BCs in fastgun would get slaughtered. Mike D
MWCI allows 3.5 units, but because the drivers of long allied 3.5 unit cruisers couldn't stand the thought of a shorter 3.5 unit cruiser that turned better, they made a specific rule to prevent Lutzows from carrying a half unit pump, so they in effect get only 2 guns. Rediculous.
Perhaps to make it fair then, the Oregon City class, Baltimore class and Des Moines class should not be allowed to use 1/2 unit pumps either, since the other Axis 3.5 unit cruisers don't have triple turrets, and thus can't have true triples. Seems like a kind of silly rule to me especially since the Lutzows only have two screws and thus can't use drag disks easily... MIke D
It was judged that Lutzow was plenty fine without being allowed to have tripples. And it is indeed a good ship without tripples. It you look, the only cruisers that can have tripples are the two giant american ones. Both with huge freeboard, and large turning radius. So they have some more firepower to make up for having twice the target area of other cruisers.
That is why treary is being received so well.no more special rules to level the playing field, lutzow can have trips,or as i am doing 2 50s at stern 2 1/2 unit pumps which =1 4 quart pump and 25 rounds out the front. All ad up to 3.5 units
I'm pretty sure we aren't allowed to have 2 half unit pumps. Two 1 unit pumps yes, 1/2 unit I think is a no-no, but I could be wrong. Mike D
