Was it really? I remember the post, but i forgot the country of origin, so i just threw in French(they seemed most likely to do something that stupid in WW2)
A British cruiser scored an "own goal" on itself too, HMS Trinidad IIRC. She made it back into Murmansk, was patched up a bit, then sunk by the Germans on the return trip. EDIT: Back on topic, I am looking forward to someone building a pre-dread in Treaty. I think they would be pretty solid beginner/loaner ships.
Hello gents, I absolutely love this thread. I ordered plans for SMS Schleswig-Holstein and will build her for big gun. I'm building DKM Kormoran right now and she's my first ship. I intend to use her first as a convoy ship, then as a convoy escort whenever I get around to arming her. As far as the predread goes, it'll depend on the ruleset of the club I battle with, but I specifically picked a predread so that I could arm all her secondaries, have a watertight compartment, and possibly a pump in each compartment. Hopefully that'd make her a tough SOB, and along with her relatively small size, might make a contender out of her. I guess it remains to be seen, but I had to speak up as a pre-dread fan also. Cheers
Hello again, I pressed send before I was totally done. Talking about ramming, read up on the battle of Lissa, 1866, between Austria and Italy. It was the Trafalgar of the Adriatic. Cheers
I would counter that in a conventional fleet battle, they may be less than decisive, but that in campaign, put a couple of predreads on guard duty at the shore targets. How many cruisers are going to come in to mess with that? Or even BBs? Predreads are also fast enough to chase convoy ships, with a low profile to help withstand escort's guns...
Tugboat, note that 11561 is talking about Big Gun predreadnoughts, not Fast Gun. Many of your comments are tactically irrelevant due to the fundamental differences between Big Gun and Fast Gun. From a Big Gunner's perspective, the preadreadnought offers tactical security and mechanical simplicity. Its two twin guns are simpler and cheaper than bigger battleships with more guns, and it is small and lightweight enough for almost anyone, no matter their health, to carry. Tactically speaking, it's slow but maneuverable. This combination of traits makes it very good for occupation missions: claim a section of pond, such as the entrance to the other team's harbor or a convoy bouy, and beat up on anyone who comes near. In general, occupation missions aren't game-winners, they're support. The actual points and damage benefit they provide is negligible next to the psychological impact of a mean little hedgehog-boat hanging out next to your port. On the other hand, its slow speed makes it ineffective at convoy attacks and pursuit missions. It's also too small and lightly armed to swap broadsides with Iowas and other big baddies. 11561, great to hear you're interested in predreadnoughts. Good luck with your build, and post pics if you can. You might want to check if your ambitions are legal, though. Some Big Gun clubs don't allow watertight bulkheads. What club are you closest to?
Hello gents, I live on Long Island NY, and the closest club I can find thus far is the ESBG in Rochester, but I haven't looked carefully yet. I want to get a convoy boat on the water first so that I can participate in a few battles, then worry about arming her for the club I will join full-time. To start out, my intent is to only have basic systems active: A pump, a motor and a rudder. As I get more experience, I'll arm Kormoran as best I can and I guess do convoy escort, or whatever. Only once I get to the point where I don't embarass myself, then I'll build Either the S-H or another combat ship depending on current rules. Cheers
For raming we could also memtion: HMS Queen Mary and the light cruiser HMS Curacoa. The SS Bulkoil and the USS Murphy (DD603) The USS Wisconsin and the USS EATON (DD510). The MV Stockholm and the T/N Andrea Doria Of these four examples: Two ships sank, lost it's forward end, and one was only dammaged. In all of these cases, both ships were dammaged, but then the ram-ers did not have a "Ram" bow.
One thing that must be added is that these ramming were not intentional. Ships sunk: HMS Curacoa, T/N Andrea Doria Ship tha lost one third of it's lenght: USS Murphy (DD603) The ship dammaged: USS EATON (DD510).
Battle between the ironclad "huascar" and wooden hulled frigate "Esmeralda" commanded by Capt Arturo Pratt Huascar rammed the stern of esmeralda, Pratt and 2 sailors jumped on the deck of Huascar who had slid away from the esmeralda, 1 sailor was killed right after jumping on deck of huascar , Captain Pratt was killed a few yards away from the command bridge of Huascar. Capt Pratt is still honored as a naval hero, his example led to the young and inexperienced crew of esmeralda to nail the flag to the mast and fight till the death. (sea hunters episode ) Krijn
uhm the british cruiser Trinidad also plunged 1 of her own torpedoes into her own side (the gyro was frozen on the torpedo) she was later attacked by planes and german destroyers, then scuttled and survivors taken of by the destroyer matchless Krijn
Let’s see now. I am going to make a few comments off the top of my head with any references on hand... Ramming was the primary way to sink a ship in the day when Oars powered ships into combat. When the rudder came to be and cannons became the primary attack, Ramming proved to be ineffective and forgotten as a means of attack. It was the successful sinking of the USS Cumberland by ramming from the CSS Virginia in the American Civil War that brought the ram back into ship design. It seemed like every ship designed after that event had a ram bow! Of course the only reason that the CSS Virginia was successful is because the USS Cumberland was a stationary target! Being part of the naval blockade of the port. With the sinking of the USS Cumberland, the other ships in the blockade started to get underway to prevent the same fate happening to them. Unknown to the other Union ships is that the ram on the CSS Virginia was only bolted on and thus broke off with the ramming of the USS Cumberland. I feel that had the ram not broken off, it would have been ineffective as a weapon because the Union ships were no longer stationary targets!
"4) ramming: perfectly legal! Ramming was considered a legitimate tactic back then, so most ships had beautiful reinforced ram bows. It'd be a shame not to use them." This is where things really fall apart. The excitement of this hobby is sinking enemy ships with gunfire. Taking a ship out and just ram sinking everything on the pond would really destroy the fun of battling.
This is why I like thick armor and slow ships: most rams do absolutely nothing. The only ram-sinks the WWCC has had since I joined the club have been tiny transports 24" long or less that were run over by much larger ships. Ram-damage is even more rare. This means that the only way to sink a ship (other than a tiny transport) is to shoot it to death.
The more I think on it the more I have come to the conclusion that the bows should be weaker than the rest of the ship. Would give one a more accurate result, but It would require a good bit of experimentation to get the right bit of destruction on both sides of the ramming.
Is there any really any value added though? I mean you're more or less looking at ramming just because ships had ram bows. How often was it really tried? More importantly, how often was it successful? Just seems to me that adding ramming is more trouble then it's worth.
It was attempted probably fewer than 5 times (intentionally at least). Usually equally damaging to the rammer as rammed. I personally don't think it ads anything to the sport/hobby to have ramming. It was considered a valid tactic in the 19th century and if you are going to accurately reflect that era you should have it as an option. It was the reason for all the "end on" fire designs after all. Some Russian designs had foredecks that sloped down towards the bow to give the fore turret greater depression for the ram attack. Apparently the plan was they would fire the main guns only once or twice during the battle anyway so why not do it just before you hit.
