Rookie Ship Design Project

Discussion in 'General' started by Kotori87, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, folks. Webwookie, mike5334, and I have been talking about designing a "kit" for rookie builders to pick up and start their combat careers. Here's the basic idea:

    1) pick a well-rounded "rookie" ship, that is both useful and a good introduction to the sport of model warship combat.
    2) construct a detailed CAD model of the selected ship.
    3) plan out how to construct the selected ship (including stuff like motors, batteries, etc), generate drawings of every part required, and basic assembly insructions.
    4) perform a test-build, correct any mistakes, then distribute.

    Webwookie, mike, does that about summarize things?
     
  2. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    A few thoughts of mine on this topic.
    First, we'll want everyone involved to have the same CAD software. That way we can pass files around and easily share our work without having to convert formats and potentially screw things up royally. I would recommend Alibre Design Express, the free CAD package, but it has a few limits on advanced modeling tools and only allows 12 objects in an assembly, which may prove limiting. Does anyone have any other ideas?

    Second, which ship should we model? Webwookie has talked about doing a medium transport, possibly armed. I personally think that a warship would be a better choice, but I can't decide which one would be best. Whatever we pick, I would like it to be effective in both Fast Gun and Big Gun formats if at all possible.

    Third, I attempted something similar to this several years ago, with the Mehoshi Maru. I ran out of steam after I got the CAD model and the basic drawings, but I still have all the files. They were done in SolidEdge student version, but I would be glad to share them with anyone who is interested. You can see the fruits of my labor in Tugboat's Free Plans collection. Heck, we could probably even finish it up as a practice run before we start on a better ship.
     
  3. Anachronus

    Anachronus Well-Known Member

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    I think an armed transport would be ideal. It won't give a "killer" ship in any format to be sure but it will have all the systems that a combat ship would have. Another advantage of such a ship is that it will have a relatively simple hull form so that the novice will not have to learn to window/skin on a ship with weird angles and casemates or the like.
     
  4. djranier

    djranier Well-Known Member

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    Or a Admiral Sheer, simple enough hull shape, Ok size, but usable fire power.
     
  5. webwookie

    webwookie Active Member

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    My opinion with regards to the choice of vessel is that it needs to have a simple hull shape (flat bottom, minimal curvature at bow and stern), retain a minimum of parts, comply with both big gun and fast gun rules (even if this fundamentally means that it has more penetrable area than required), and it needs to be of a type that was produced in large numbers (so as we do not run the risk of ultimately producing a ridiculously plentiful supply of an otherwise extremely rare vessel).
    To that end, I strongly suggest that we begin with a medium transport of some form or another then we can progress onward to a combat vessel (presumably a lightly-armed cruiser of some sort).

    With regards to CAD software, my experience has been that exclusively restricting design to a single application can exclude people from participation who otherwise have very sound, valuable ideas to contribute. What I can suggest on the topic is that anybody who otherwise does not have consistent access to a higher-powered application should go ahead and use a free application such as Alibre, provided that it can export and import data in the "universal" iges and step file formats. As I have access to Unigraphics through my employer, I could compile the individual contributions and generate dxf templates or even generate files from which plugs could be CNC cut or created using sterolithography.
     
  6. mike5334

    mike5334 Well-Known Member

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    Good point on the CAD software. I use DevCADLE, another free CAD program found on the internet. It works, but it's not AutoCAD.

    The list looks good. Should we add a sub heading for componants, such as cannons? Next to designing the hull, the cannons will be the next major obstacle. Perhaps a sub commitee of RC Naval Combat vets can work on those. I was thinking of taking the fiber filled resin idea one step further and molding modular cannons. But I'm getting ahead of the list here. Heh.

    On which ships to do, would something around a class 2 or 3 in fast gun be too much? They are smaller ships, easy to transport in small cars, and recognizable as a warship in that "it looks like a small Bismark" sort of way. Heh. Of course, it might be a good idea to do one Axis ship and one Allied ship to give new captains an option right off the bat.
     
  7. Evil Joker

    Evil Joker Member

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    i think it should be a ship that could go axis or allies or a ship that can switch from transport to warship i dont know if there is a ship or ships like that but it would give them a lot to pick from
     
  8. webwookie

    webwookie Active Member

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    Here's how I think we should subdivide the project into principle systems within the 2nd and 3rd tasks in the list:

    1. Hull and superstructure
    2. Drivetrain (preferably focused on using off-the-shelf parts) and pump
    3. Radio gear selection (perhaps a list of low-cost transmitter/receiver combinations, suitable servos, etc.)
    4. Single barrel cannon
     
  9. Evil Joker

    Evil Joker Member

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    heres a cheap radio http://www.puremtc.com/products/rc_equips/index.htm
     
  10. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    To the best of my knowledge (and I could be wrong), "armed transports" aren't legal in the IRCWCC. Not sure about the MWC, but I don't think they are legal there either. Some MWC WARSHIPS are listed as 0.5 units, so I'm not sure how an armed transport would be recieved. If you DO choose to go that route, I'd recommend US C2 cargo ship hulls. You can make escort carriers out of them, Ammo ships, assault transports, etc. They are generic enough to play for either side.

    That being said, I think for a WARSHIP (and a better over all choice), some kind of heavy cruiser would be just the ticket. I'd throw my hat in for the Soviet Kirov class cruiser. For fast gun, she's about on par with the other cruisers, with 3.0 units and turrets on both ends of the ship, and enough length to get extra rudder in the IRCWCC (although not the MWC). For big gun use she has torpedo tubes and does 35 knots, so she's no slouch and would make for a reasonable torpedo cruiser, or a gun cruiser if desired with 9 7.1 inch guns (same cal as 8 inch I believe for BG purposes). Also, since they are relatively few in number, it's quite conceivable that Kirov could play for either allies or axis depending on the fleet situation.

    So those would be MY recommendations. The best choice in my opinion, is the Kirov. She's a solid all around ship. By far the second choice would be a C2 hull (fast gun rarely uses transports at all).
     
  11. webwookie

    webwookie Active Member

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    With regard to armed transports, I didn't expect they would receive enough units to be armed for fast gun but I admit that I'm also not particularly up to speed on fast gun rules. I would certainly be comfortable with selecting the Type C2 hull as the base for a rookie vessel. Although the bow geometry is slightly more complex than on a Liberty ship, I don't think it would cause any issues. I noticed from photos on the web of the USS Polaris that the above deck structures could be kept quite simple and the superstructure could easily integrate the fuction of a recovery float.
     
  12. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    An unarmed ship for any kind of fast gun use is not really a good way to get people involved. Transports are almost never run, thus a warship of some flavor is far better fit to cross both major formats.
     
  13. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    I would suggest Jean d'Arc for a cruiser... True, not a huge class, but you're not going to find a huge class that can go both ways. JdA has a relatively roomy stern area for setting up the rudder, can weigh up to 10 pounds, just a hair under 4 feet long. A relatively simple superstructure is nice, too. As a proud ship of the French navy, she can play either side. Also, I have a set of plans on my hard drive that I just realized are cleaned and ready to post :) [regardless of the ship chosen for your project, they'll be posted shortly]
     
  14. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    When I look for cruisers, I won't even consider a ship with less than 35 knots, and prefer about 37 knots (40+ is best, but less common). They should also have at least 2 torpedo tubes per side, three or more is preferred. There isn't much difference in penetration power between .177 and 3/16 caliber shots, so that isn't as big a consideration.

    Jeane d'Arc is listed as a maximum of 27.84 knots: she could never fight in big gun. With the most common big gun battleships able to match or exceed that speed she would never be able to escape or control the engagement. Additionally, she has only one torpedo tube per side, which is unacceptable for a cruiser.

    I would consider the Emile Bertin for a light cruiser. She's fast, has a good torpedo armament and location, and a decent main gun armament. She's small, so I wouldn't mix the two, but you could go either way. How is she in IRCWCC and MWC? Also, how is the Capitani Romani?

    I would also look at the Duca d'Aosta. Top speed 37.35 knots, four twin 6" turrets, and 6 torpedoes in a good location. She may even get medium armor (belt is listed as 70mm + 35mm, medium armor needs 3", so do you add the two numbers together or is there a difference between the two numbers?). She's a bit shorter than Kirov, has four twins instead of three triples, and has comparable speed. I'd say those two would be very close competitors. How is the Duca in IRCWCC and MWC?

    I like the Kirov. It has torpedoes, guns, and speed. It is big enough that a good builder could fit both torpedoes and a single turret and make them reliable and simple to maintain (so can the duca, but the emile is a bit too small). I like this ship as heavy cruisers go. Also take a look at the Mogami light cruiser. The triple 6" turret will be more effective than the twin 8" turret. The torpedo placement is a bit far aft, but can still be effective.

    I also like the Adm. Scheer. A german pocket battleship is more like a miniature battleship in practice, not a heavy cruiser. Arm a rotating gun up front, a fixed gun in back, ignore the torpedoes, and give it a 9oz bottle. You've got a pretty simple little boat that will be operated like a battleship. It's not fast, but it can fight well for its size. As long as you don't try to exchange fire evenly with a big boat, you should do all right.

    I personally think that unarmed transports are one of the big shortcomings of fast gun. They are simple and cheap to build, and can get someone on the pond quickly, which will help get people involved more easily. They can also be lent out to visitors, to help convince them to join the club. They can easily be added, just like they are used in big gun. Run laps to score big points for your team. Battles become more interesting when you are trying to protect or attack a target.
     
  15. webwookie

    webwookie Active Member

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    Seeing the issues inherent to the usability of an unarmed vessel across formats, I definitely understand the benefits of going with a cruiser instead. My concern with persuing the path of a cruiser is whether or not the geometry of the hull is sufficiently simple such that it can be accurately and easily assembled to a common design by persons of limited skill. What does everybody else think of going with a cruiser and if so, which one? From a strict historic plausibility perspective, a French vessel would be best as far as being able to play both allied or axis.
     
  16. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    If you're going to ignore torps on the Deutschland, then why is one torp per side unacceptable on another cruiser? And why raise the issue of the speed for JdA when the Deutschland is scarcely half a knot faster?

    So, ignoring the torpedo tubes on Deutschland... She's a wider, just as unarmored Jeanne d'Arc(0 to 6.99" gets you 1/16"), a half knot faster, and with the larger guns in big gun, more expensive. Also, with 2 rudders, she'll take more engineering than a single-rudder ship. In fast gun, she has the same guns[gets one more gun under IRCWCC], but is a second slower in both fast gun rulesets. Also, Deutschland cannot go to either side, it's definitely Axis.

    Emile Bertin is a 2.0 unit 22 second ship in MWC.
    Capitani Romani is 1.5 units, 22 seconds.
    The later Montecuccoli is 2.5 units, 22 seconds (37kts for big gun guys) *Duca d'Aosta is same stats-wise as the Monty, but can weigh more)
    **These cruisers are 23 sec in IRCWCC.

    The Monty or the Duca would be good choices in fast gun. Kirov can't really go both ways, as the Russians were sort of firmly Allied in both big wars. In region 3 MWC we've had to go flag/no flag so much it's not an issue, but some places are more strict.

    I agree with you 100% that convoy ships would add a lot to fast gun battles... the 2 campaign battles at Nats are my favorites of the whole week, because I love running convoys. I think awarding points for laps of the battle area would provide incentive to include them for thoe people who aren't devoted members of the 'no-gun fraternity'.
     
  17. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    How about FS Dunkerque? 31 knots, eight 330mm guns, bunches of 130mm guns, 225mm of armor... in fast gun, she's 24sec, 4.5 units. Lots of room and weight allowance to help a rookie builder with keeping it under weight.
     
  18. Anachronus

    Anachronus Well-Known Member

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    That is getting further and further a way from a cheap and simple ship, which I thought was the point of the exercise.
     
  19. Tugboat

    Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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    In fast gun, it's only 3 cannons, 1 rudder, and a simple drive system.

    In big gun, it's only 2 main turrets, 1 rudder, and a simple drive system.
     
  20. JasonC

    JasonC Active Member

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    ya that an easy ship to do it big inside and has a simple SS its has 3 guns in small gun and is fast. we have one up here in NABS hasent been in battle but i have gotten a good look at the ship very easy to work with and its french so it goes both ways and its would be a good ship in big done too and i would thing be simple to build and is allowed 3/32 blasa wood skinning i belive in big gun