Rookie Ship Design Project

Discussion in 'General' started by Kotori87, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    I would go with the Tashkent. It's sleek, fast, and (relatively) big. A pair of Mabuchi 365's running on a 7.2v AA pack should get it up to Big Gun speeds, and either 8.4v or 9.6v will get it up to Fast Gun speeds. Or you could run both shafts off one motor. Armament-wise, a BC 1-unit cannon and a 16-gram disposable cartridge should do the trick just fine. For hull construction, not only do we get to demonstrate proper wooden-hull construction technique but we also get to demonstrate how to deal with a stepped deck. But most importantly, it has that elusive quality which I can only describe as a dangerous look. The Tashkent looks like a powerful ship, which is one quality that the Yubari lacks. I think that that dangerous look will go a long way towards getting rookies interested.

    Honestly, the Capitani Romani and Emile Bertin scare me. I've seen them in action and fought with them and against them, and (for Big Gun, at least) they would be exactly the sort of monster we're trying to avoid.
     
  2. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps something a little bit slower would be advisable then, Katori. The reason I say that is that you wouldn't have to worry about someone making super torpedo ships out of them. The stats on the Tashkent indicate it would be just as bad as the Capitani Romani or Emile Bertin.

    That being said, how about the WW2 Arethusa class? Plenty of space, only six 6-inch guns, torps, 32 knots. For fast gun work they have 2.0 units (either .5 unit pump and 75 round gun or 1.0 unit pump and 50 round gun). For big gun, at 32 knots they'll be able to outrun most battleships, but if they make a mistake they don't have the speed to avoid being pummeled. I think that will make them dangerous in the hands of a rookie, yet not so dangerous that they'll own the pond and be an unstoppable beast.

    Furthermore, they look like a WARSHIP. Solid and steady. They have a passing resemblance to a KGV class battleship.

    If you want that raked mast and funnel look (ala Tashkent), on the same basic hull and displacement the Dido and Improved Dido class might be worth looking at.
     
  3. Anachronus

    Anachronus Well-Known Member

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    Not a bad looking ship.

     
  4. klibben

    klibben Member

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    I prefer the Yubari because its style represents a diplomatic elegance such as the Hood ... plus I like Jap ships! haha, but alas, I am not the one building the ships in this case!
     
  5. mike5334

    mike5334 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread ... been reaalllly busy! :)

    A destroyer looks very doable IMO. It's small enough to be easily transported by anyone. It is uncomplicated compared to cruisers or larger ships which also means it will be lower cost. Resheeting the sides will be cheap (by the way, has anyone looked into 3mm depron foam as a sheeting substitute?). And it looks like it can be adapted by all 1/144 formats in one way or the other. Oh, and I like the idea of using commercial off-the-shelf sub-c battery packs for power (standard 6 cell pack weighs around 13 - 14 oz). I also like the idea of using standard 12 gram CO2 cartridges for the air system, though I don't know if that would be enough CO2 for the big gun format.

    We will really have to work to keep the weight down. I think it's doable even using a resin glass plastic hull. The superstructure can be molded out of closed cell foam easily enough to save weight.

    As for what ship I like: both the Tashkent and Yubari will work nicely. I like the Tashkent for looks and that little extra width ... yet we may need that extra half pound of weight that the Yubari has.

    Once we have a good idea what we can do by designing the first ship, then we can apply that knowledge towards ships of other navys such as a US, German, or British ship. But that's getting ahead of ourselves. We need to figure out the first ship first. :)
     
  6. Anachronus

    Anachronus Well-Known Member

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    Why not set up a poll with those 4 as options?
     
  7. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    You might want to be worried about the impact of a fleet of Tashkents on big gun though. 39 knots and 9 torps might be pretty wicked.
     
  8. DeletedUser

    DeletedUser Guest

    on the second page i have a idea how about the prinz eugen
     
  9. the frog

    the frog Member

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    Earlier you were woried about cutting into bc business by doing a capitani romani.BDE put out a lazer [cut kit of the taskent a lot of work would be done for you and it costs under 5q0 our less . Ask wreo how he like the way his taskent fell together .It is on of the easiest kits i have ever seen.Wit a flat bottom it is very ostable with 2 7.2 volt packs and runs all day. 7.2 volt 3000 mahr nims are the best buy on the market. Can be recharged while in boat between sorties.My taskent went like a bat out of hell with 2 low power motors sold by bde also. te]Originally posted by mike5334

    Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread ... been reaalllly busy! :)

    A destroyer looks very doable IMO. It's small enough to be easily transported by anyone. It is uncomplicated compared to cruisers or larger ships which also means it will be lower cost. Resheeting the sides will be cheap (by the way, has anyone looked into 3mm depron foam as a sheeting substitute?). And it looks like it can be adapted by all 1/144 formats in one way or the other. Oh, and I like the idea of using commercial off-the-shelf sub-c battery packs for power (standard 6 cell pack weighs around 13 - 14 oz). I also like the idea of using standard 12 gram CO2 cartridges for the air system, though I don't know if that would be enough CO2 for the big gun format.

    We will really have to work to keep the weight down. I think it's doable even using a resin glass plastic hull. The superstructure can be molded out of closed cell foam easily enough to save weight.

    As for what ship I like: both the Tashkent and Yubari will work nicely. I like the Tashkent for looks and that little extra width ... yet we may need that extra half pound of weight that the Yubari has.

    Once we have a good idea what we can do by designing the first ship, then we can apply that knowledge towards ships of other navys such as a US, German, or British ship. But that's getting ahead of ourselves. We need to figure out the first ship first. :)


    [/quote]
     
  10. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    I always forget about the BDE Tashkent. A lot of people may not even know about it.
     
  11. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    Yubari: Something about her just doesn't quite feel right to me. There was only a single ship in the class but we'd be mass producing them. She was 35.5 knots, which meets my absolute minimum requirement of 35 knots, but I could hope for better. Gun layout isn't bad, but she's light on torpedoes. She's not bad, but I don't think she's top dog, while the others seem a bit closer to the mark to me. Of course, it may just be me reacting against a ship I have never seen built before, while I've seen the Tashkent, Romani, and Emile running and have fought against the Romani.

    Tashkent: Trial speed of 44.2 knots is as close to perfection as possible. Armament is very nice, too. She can have a single gun for starters, two guns for advanced builders (also more fun), and be converted to exchange guns for torpedoes later. How many rudders does she have? BDE has a laser-cut hull for Tashkent. She has the potential to become a nasty torpedo boat, but see the footnote at the bottom. My number 3 choice.

    Capitani: 41 knots is excellent speed. Again, good armament. One gun for starters, two for more advanced builders, and can later drop the guns for torpedoes. Flush deck is easier to build. My number 1 choice. There are two Capitanis in the WWCC armed with torpedoes which have proven to be as good as Spahkreuzer. Again, see my footnote on torpedoes at the bottom.

    Emile: 39.66 knots is excellent speed. I would suggest similar armament options as the Tashkent and Capitani: one or two guns with option of converting to torpedoes. My number 2 choice because it is a bit slower that the Romani and has a step deck. That, and its French :p Again, see footnote about torpedo cruisers.

    Are we planing on doing a wood hull or a fiberglass hull? I like the idea of teaching people how to build wooden hulls: it is a dying art that I don't want to see dead yet.

    Footnote:
    "Torpedo cruisers" and "torpedo boats" are terms I use to refer to very fast light cruisers and destroyers armed with two or more torpedo tubes per side. These ships use their speed and maneuverability to get in close to large battleships and blast them with a single powerful volley of 1/4" steel balls, and many can also lay mines. They have been compared to a fighter wing of a carrier: get in fast, deal major damage, get out fast.

    Starting with the Campaign Game of August 2006, a core group of about six such ships (Spahkreuzer, two Capitanis, Cadorna, and two of her sisters) have run rampant in the WWCC. One major factor in their success is that they are all operated by friends who work as a team, especially during the Campaign Games. Teamwork is, unfortunately, a rare trait in a club that often switches teams after 15 minutes of fighting, so nobody knows how to deal with it or is even prepared to admit that their teamwork is not as good.

    Another major factor is that, especially during the end of the 2006 combat season (including Spahkreuzer's first three battles, as mentioned by Carl), the pond was not balanced. In the campaign game and a couple sorties, the torpedo cruisers were mostly on one side, while in other cases, for various reasons (personal injury, work, life) there weren't enough battleships on the pond. When the cruisers were all on the same side, they used mines to separate their enemies, then coordinated their attacks and focused their firepower. When there weren't enough battleships, the torpedo cruisers were forced to swarm the one or two big boys on the pond. The large, slow targets couldn't get any help against the swarms, and spent their time attempting to evade one cruiser after another. More evidence to support this point is the fact that there have been torpedo cruisers before, but no more than one or two at a time, instead of the six or more seen in 2006 and 2007.

    A third factor is that the WWCC allows torpedoes to fire two balls per barrel. The two balls hit near each other and tend to cause chunks instead of holes. This is not the case for other clubs, and was changed for the the 2008 combat season.

    In 2007, there were more battleships on the pond, and, asides from the campaign game, the teams tended to be more even. Cruiser captains also reacted to the outrage of a number of battleship skippers by being a bit less aggressive. In three battles during 2006, Carl claimed 10 enemy sinks while getting sunk 2 times. In six battles in 2007 he only added 7 to that total and was sunk 3 more times. The 2007 Campaign Game was a slaughter when the torpedo cruisers teamed up against a poorly coordinated force of mostly battleships, but that emphasizes the issues that I mentioned before. This year, there should be even more battleships and less experienced, team-oriented torpedo cruisers, since Carl and I sold ours and built transports.

    The whole point of this is that teamwork is a powerful weapon, and torpedo cruisers are most dangerous in packs (they're still dangerous in singles, but not nearly as much). There is a simple way to drastically reduce the probability of getting swarms of torpedo cruisers: have the basic ship package include guns only, not torpedoes. By the time a new member builds the gun armed ship and battles it a bit, it is most likely that he will want to move into a proper battleship, since that is the core ideal of big gun combat. If he really likes small boats or can't handle the larger boats, then torpedoes should still be available as an extra kit By starting off with a gun boat instead of a torpedo boat, a new member is more likely to move into a battleship.
     
  12. klibben

    klibben Member

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    While you want a fast boat, you may not want the perfect boat - give 'em something that works well but they also gotta learn the techniques. If they have a ship where they just keep running away, it'll ruin it for the other players and also never teach them how to work in any other ship!

    If you guys ever need any help let me know, especially with digital media or anything like that.
     
  13. webwookie

    webwookie Active Member

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    Ideally, we want to create ready-to-cut templates of parts to build a wood hull; perhaps after that, somebody will be interested in selling laser-cut kits of parts. Since we'll have to digitize the hull profile anyways, we can also publish 3D data that anybody could use to make a plug for a fiberglass hull or a SLS rapid prototype, almost ready-to-cover hull. Of our four options, I'm not too keen on the Capitani Romani or the Tashkent since there's already a manufacturer of each which would leave the Yubari or Emile Bertin. While the Yubari doesn't have many torpedos and the Emile Bertin has a few more, we aren't specifically attempting to build vessels capable of operating as lethal wolfpacks nor are we trying to specifically avoid doing so. Of these two, plans for the Emile Bertin are free and readily available so I will suggest that we begin with the Emile Bertin and follow it with a vessel from a different country.
     
  14. EricMA

    EricMA Member

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    For what it's worth I like the idea of torpedo boats. I am building two des moines Heavy cruisers 1/144 scale right now but My first idea was a Fletcher class destroyer in 1/96 scale (which I still plan on building)I chose this because it has torpedoes and I was trying to figure out how to make them work. I am really interested in this so if someone came up with a kit I would be all over it. I like the idea of teams as well. It make it more of a challenge than just going out there and seeing who will sink who first. I'm not saying that there is no challenge cause it requires a lot of skill to stay in the fight and out smart your opponent. I just think teams are more of a challenge.
     
  15. Anachronus

    Anachronus Well-Known Member

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    The Bertin also having the advantage of being able to fight on either side.
     
  16. webwookie

    webwookie Active Member

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    Assuming that we have success with a couple of complete ship designs in 1/144; I'd certainly like to try to organize a stab at a 1/96 ship or two.
     
  17. EricMA

    EricMA Member

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    If I could do it in 1/144 I would but all I keep hearing is that it is almost impossible and not worth it. I plan on running both 1/144 and 1/96.
     
  18. klibben

    klibben Member

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    Hmmmm, I don't like the idea of a destroyer if they are building the hulls out of wood. You are already pushing skill level up a notch when building a destroyer, but by making it out of wood you are also decreasing the already limited room they have to work with, and possibly increasing weight. I would highly suggest if you do a destroyer to sell fiberglass hulls.
     
  19. Evil Joker

    Evil Joker Member

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    just use this ship http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/300228.asp
    it's already built and let it go 1/96 or 1/144 and just make it for rookies
    the ship is there just to get them in
     
  20. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    I could go with the Emile Bertin. Free plans, nobody is making a hull yet (we can't hurt their business), is bigger than the other ships we were looking at, fights both sides, and it looks cool.

    Here is a photo of one with all nine guns and six torps, though I doubt they work all the time and I don't know if she has enough gas.
    http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/index.php?set_albumName=album43&id=03_Sparky_s_Boats&option=com_gallery&Itemid=85&include=view_photo.php

    I believe the Lindy Fletcher is 1/125 scale, and can't be used for combat.