Rudder Study IRCWCC Fast Gun

Discussion in 'Ship Comparison' started by Maxspin, Dec 5, 2014.

  1. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    You have fish? WHAT!
     
  2. Lou

    Lou It's just toy boats -->> C T D <<-- Admiral (Supporter)

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    and chips. I call them "Ponch and John"
     
    jadfer and Wmemlo like this.
  3. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    So Tilapia and the Trout?
     
  4. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    There are fish tails
    [​IMG]
    And there are fish tails
    [​IMG]
    Help me to understand how a fishtail would make a single rudder boat more "recommended" than a dual rudder boat. or a dual drive shaft boat more "recommended" that a single drive shaft boat???
     
  5. Lou

    Lou It's just toy boats -->> C T D <<-- Admiral (Supporter)

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    Google schilling rudders. This helps a single rudder ship turn "better - being relative".
     
  6. Wmemlo

    Wmemlo Member

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    I don't think anyone is arguing that the single prop dual rudders are not better than other combos for turning ability.
     
  7. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    NOPE???
    I present evidence!
    Erin With Dual Rudders
    [​IMG]
    Baden With Dual Rudders
    [​IMG]
    WeeVee Single
    [​IMG]
    Richelieu Single
    [​IMG]
    Dunkerque single
    [​IMG]

    If you are going to state emphatically that my opinion is wrong, back it up with something better than YOUR opinion.
    I am not going to buy each of the blue prints to prove it, but the eye test is with me.

    Keith
     
  8. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    Actually those are not the fish tail rudders that some folks have been using.. perhaps we should call them FISH rudders but because they include the round part at the front of the rudder. Just those little tails DO make a difference, Bob tested it at Nats on his NC and said it made a difference.

    And like Wmemlo said, nobody said it would make them turn better than dual... they aren't supposed to.. there are two rudders so they should turn better.

    However it will IMPROVE their turning and in some cases greatly.
     
  9. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    Been there done that.
    Built a set for the Washington. :D
     
  10. jadfer

    jadfer Well-Known Member

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    They all look to be roughly the same size and the rudders used on dual rudder ships are certainly not 50% smaller than the single rudders. Lets also keep in mind none of those drawings are to scale either.
     
  11. Wmemlo

    Wmemlo Member

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    I never said you were wrong, I stated an opinion of why I thought the rules are as they are. If you want the best turning ship, based on your value judgement, then you're gonna end up with an axis ship. But the argument is that that is not the end all be all of the value of a ship, and that there are plenty of competitive allied ships out there.
     
  12. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    There is absolutely NOTHING that I have proposed that would make a single rudder ship turn as good as a dual rudder ship. I have suggested something that would move them from "You should never build" .
     
  13. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    This is like pulling teeth:bang:
    In your opinion what are the 5 most competitive allied ships out there?

    P.S. Not meant as an attack on you Wmemlo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  14. Wmemlo

    Wmemlo Member

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    QE, iron duke (inferred, I've never seen one battle), NC/Sodak (run/gun style), I-boat (bit of freeboard, but I've seen a few driven well), the Erin looks like a potentially good ship, but I've never seen one. I think a WV can do well but needs an experienced captain and good build. But these all need that. There are prob more, but I AM Axis ;). Remember, all the nats I went to went allied. I'm a firm believer that captain/reliability trump every other factor by quite a big margin.
     
  15. Wmemlo

    Wmemlo Member

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    No worries, I want everyone to be happy w their ships/fleets/battles/etc.
     
  16. NickMyers

    NickMyers Admin RCWC Staff

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    Ship A: My Derfflinger with inline dual rudders.
    Ship B: A similarly dimensioned and spec'd ship with but a single rudder.
    Currently ShipA turns better than than ShipB.
    If you give ShipB the 50% bonus, they now get more main rudder area than ShipA. This is not acceptable to me. :D

    I think you need to look more narrowly at ship building eras. It is logical that the Richelieu would have a larger rudder than the Bayern, etc. Look within individual navies if you can. The french may be a good source, lots of plans for them out there.
     
  17. Maxspin

    Maxspin -->> C T D <<--

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    I have never disagreed with that!!!
    If a single rudder Allied ship suddenly could turn equal to the Derfflinger, she would more than make up the advantage with her low profile:rolleyes:
    Of course that silly little 1/2 unit pump.............:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  18. Wmemlo

    Wmemlo Member

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    Then you're making too much of a small factor in ship value. a well driven QE is a match for a Baden. It's speed lets it decide when to engage/ disengage, which compensates for turning difference. Battle then revolves around skill. As far as single rudder ships, they can be competitive, but I think that it takes much more skill to do that. They prob aren't the best entry level boat. But I don't think a Baden is either. A rookie in one of those would be meat as much as any other ship.
    As to axis/allies, I think most local battling is done flag/no flag, so it's really about what style/ship a captain wants and not a particular fleet. At nats, an individual ship isn't as important as coordinating captains. A great ship can be swarmed by several good ships and lose. It's just more tactical than technical (except in terms of reliability).
     
  19. Iunnrais

    Iunnrais Active Member

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    fishtail Mk I from my Vanguard. Will be re-used on a future build.


    Full scale ships' rudders are not all designed to maximize turning. Turning may or may not be an important design factor. For example, the U.S. battle line up through the Colorado class was built to maintain a fairly uniform speed and turning circle where the newer ship classes were built to include larger guns, thicker armor, better systems, etc.

    Some like Vanguard, turning was more an afterthought to built it fast with materials we have at hand.
     
  20. Wmemlo

    Wmemlo Member

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    Yeah, and that would say that the rudder rules aren't really tied to reality, but the differences in the rules for the ships give us the opportunity to develop tactic/strategy based on the navy's fleets strengths/weaknesses. I think that's a good thing. The question is then whether it's unfair. I don't think it is. What about most allied guys? How do yall feel about it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2014