I think that the Big Gunners are getting closer to a common set because they now have a "National" Event. Fast Gunners two main rule sets (MWC and IRC)are close enough that they have very few problems playing together (In fact, some MWC people came to our NE Regional and we are going to their Savanna, Ga. Battle next month). Treaty boats are similar but have to make special provisions to be able to play in fast gun and treaty with the same boat (Speed and other issues are different). Some rule sets are so different that they can never play together (i.e. different scale) and are mainly dependant upon local clubs events. Pick what you want and what is played near your location, they are all fun. Marty Hayes
Interestingly, we were not aware at the time that AUSBG was doing this. It was proposed as a "low damage" event for Friday, to better preserve ships for the "Main Event" stuff on Saturday and Sunday. Best laid plans. Understanding that it was important for the cargo to get through (or, not, if on the opposing side), the focus shifted to attacking and escorting/defending at all costs. Highest carnage battle we had seen in some time, and a huge amount of fun. It also kind of focuses the captains on the real purposes of the navy - to make sure men and materiel get through or to choke off the enemy supplies. After we got over the stunned shock of getting exactly the opposite result from what was expected, It instantly became a regular feature of NABGO. Cheers,
If a guy wanted to attempt building a big gun boat, is there a set of even basic construction rules? Stuff common to all big gun boats, arming, armour, speeds, weights windows etc. J
Alas, no. Different clubs have mis-interpreted the original Big Gun armament, armor, and hull construction rules over the years. About the only things people still agree on is the speed chart and the sizes of balsa and ball bearings to use. Resolving those issues was the original goal of this thread, but as you can see, it failed.
Is that information available online? How do you determine how to arm your ship? How many main guns, secondary guns and/or torpedoes can you put on a ship? I was told once that if the weapon was there and you can fit it in the boat, you can install it. Is this true? J
The WWCC, NTXBG, and AusBG all have their rules posted online. I believe the other Big Gun clubs do, as well, but I don't remember their website URLs. You'll notice that, for the most part, each club's rules are very similar, with only minor variations on allowed rib spacing, margin of error on scale, extra depth, etc. Unfortunately, resolving all those minor variations is quite a challenge because none of the clubs can agree on which variations to use. Armament-wise, you've basically described it. For any gun 3" or bigger, if it had it, you can (try to) arm it. Arming all the main guns is pretty popular, but occasionally people include secondary guns as well for either anti-torpedoboat work or to defend their aft. We've even got a few folks who insist on arming all the secondaries instead of the main guns. Once I even saw a guy who had armed every gun his ship carried, but forgot to save room for a CO2 bottle, batteries, or even motors That was embarrassing... It's a bit different for torpedoes, though. The WWCC has discovered a gameplay limit of 3 torpedoes per side. Without such a limit, you get ships like Kitikami and Oi with 30+ torpedoes, that can sink any other ship in a single shot and take the fun out of the game.
Embarrassing yes, but what a broadside he could of had. I like the Kitikami and the Oi, I use them in A&A war at Sea minis game, nothing says love like a handfull of long lance torpedoes. Thanks for the info, J
Given the historically poor performance of even Japanese torpedoes, I wouldn't expect a properly-modelled wargame to give them a super-shot. The historical hit rate for the IJN (best torpedoes and torpedomen of WW2 surface ships, I believe) was around 6 or 7%. So for 30 torps fired, you're looking at 2 hits. Yes they'd hurt, but it's not all that and a bag of chips.
If you're looking for historically accurate, it's hard to get better than the computer game Jutland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLFdhewl83M Kitikami and Oi are still effective boats in the WWCC, despite the limitation on torpedoes. I helped build a squadron of them several years back. We laid down four hulls, three of which were sold to pay for completion of the fourth. The fourth proved to be a capable battler, and is only shelved right now because her skipper built new guns for his battleship, and he can only repair one ship at a time. All the 3-tube-per-side limitation does is ensure that they are properly balanced with the other ships on the water.
The A&A minis game isn't really historically accurate, it is just a quick tabletop game that you could play a dozen games in an afternoon. For a more accurate game we would play Victory At Sea from Mongoose publishing. Many more variables, and a much more detailed overall game. J
The numbers will change if you separate the cruiser fired torpedoes from the destroyer fired torpedoes. The destroyers were miles more effective as a torpedo delivery system then the cruisers were. US cruiser design is often faulted for not including torpedoes, but history shows that they really didnt accomplish much fired from a cruiser AND were a very dangerous liability.
The main benifits I see to an internationally ratified ruleset, inlcuding construction are: 1. Allowing vendors to produce and market certifed hulls and kits that are compliant with ALL clubs and can be used anywhere. This is something they can then market, and a step towards bringing the hobby more main stream. It will also allow them to create much more detailed intruction manuals and guidance. 2. The grandfather clause will allow all already constructed vessels to still be legal. Only new boats need to be built to the new standard. The differences in rules seem to be that minor anyway that little advantage would be gained. it need not expire. 3. With a unified ruleset, an inter club tournament would be much more feasable (not an issue down here in Aus, where we have one rulest for the country) 4. Second hand sales of warshps to members of different clubs would be possible with little or no modification required. A certifcation system, such as R/C sailing yachts, would work.
Seems like a great idea until you try to get it done. All clubs have rules that don't fly with "other" clubs so making a more consistant rule set is near imposible. It took Marty Hayes nearly 12 years just to have Big Gun and Fast gun clubs under NAMBA insurance use a common safety guideline, MWC wasn't included because they have different insurance. So to get vendors to be on the same page looks even harder, unless they do it themselves without a convention of clubs pushing their own seperate differences.
If Big Guns don't have a standardized set of rules, how do you delineate whether ships from regions different than the host can compete at the NatIonals?
All the Big Gun clubs with the exception of the WWCC are close enough that it doesn't cause any major issues to battle together at NABGO (North American Big Gun Open). There is no real "nationals" just open invitations year round and NABGO. There is a forum started by a friend of mine thats purpose is to create a common rule set. I do not know how much traction it has gained. Das Butts
Good question, but they have the menu extensively planned out....( http://www.nabgo.org/downloads/NABGO_2012_Preliminary_Schedule.pdf )
My friend Wreno hosts said event at his (and his families) executive retreat center. It is awesome. Das Butts
