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S. Korean corvette sinks near North Korea

Discussion in 'Full Scale' started by eljefe, Mar 27, 2010.

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eljefe Active Member

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Late last night, the South Korean patrol ship Cheonan suffered an explosion and sank. As of midnight Korean time, 58 of the 104 member crew of the Cheonan had been rescued. The cause of the sinking of the Cheonan, a 1,300 ton missile corvette, is as of yet unknown. However, the South Korean cabinet has convened an emergency meeting to deal with the situation, and some reports suggest that a North Korean torpedo may have struck the Cheonan.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...ip-sinking
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...gD9EMMTN80
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreig...a-involved

eljefe, Mar 27, 2010

#1
eljefe Active Member

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Latest news on the Cheonan sinking...

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- Strong winds and rough waves Sunday dimmed hopes of rescuing 46 South Korean sailors as search efforts entered their second day following the Friday night sinking of their navy ship off the North Korean coast.
South Korean rescuers continued to scour the Yellow Sea on Sunday for the missing sailors from the 1,200 [ton] patrol ship Cheonan, according to the Yonhap News Agency.
"We are hoping to be able to go underwater today," a military official said, according to Yonhap. The news agency said that military divers failed Saturday to reach the sunken vessel.

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Hopes dim for South Korean sailors after sinking (CNN)

March 28 (Bloomberg) -- South Korea’s navy searched for a second day for 46 crew missing after their patrol boat sank near a disputed border, with officials saying there was no indication of North Korea’s involvement.
...
The Cheonan split in two and started sinking shortly after an explosion at the stern around 9 p.m. on March 26, according to the ship’s captain, Choi Won Il, who was among 58 survivors.
“With a loud bang and the sound of an explosion, the ship tilted 90 degrees to starboard,” Choi said. He reported the incident using his cell phone after the blast cut all power and communications, he said.
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South Korea Seeks Survivors of Sunken Ship; North Korea Silent (Business Week)

eljefe, Mar 27, 2010

#2
eljefe Active Member

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March 28 - Speculations have been rampant as to the cause of the sinking of a South Korean naval ship in waters near the disputed Yellow Sea border with North Korea on Friday night.

...

Experts speculate on largely three possible causes - an explosion within the ship due to internal defects or malfunctioning, accidental collision with a reef or other objects, or an attack from an outside force including the North Korean navy.

The possibility of an internal cause - such as an explosion of parts near the rear hull of the vessel where the explosion ripped a hole - appears to be very low, according to an expert.

...

The ship was carrying gunpowder and explosives, so a collision with an outside object could easily have caused an explosion.

But observers do not put much weight on the likelihood of a collision with a rock as the South Korean navy is largely familiar with the geographical features of the area where it often engages in training or patrol activities.

...

A close observation of the hole would reveal whether the explosion occurred internally or externally. Divers had difficulty approaching the sunken ship on Saturday and yesterday due to high waves and strong wind in the area.

Some U.S. experts said Saturday sea mines might have caused the tragic sinking of the South Korean ship, dismissing concerns over possible North Korean involvement.
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Speculations vary on cause of ship sinking (Korea Herald)

eljefe, Mar 28, 2010

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eljefe Active Member

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SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — South Korea's president ordered the military on alert Tuesday for any moves by rival North Korea after the defense minister said last week's explosion and sinking of a South Korean ship may have been caused by a North Korean mine.

The blast ripped the 1,200-ton ship apart last Friday night during a routine patrol mission near Baengnyeong Island, along the tense maritime border west of the Korean peninsula. Fifty-eight crew members, including the captain, were plucked to safety; 46 remain missing with dim prospects for finding any further survivors.

The Joint Chief of Staff said the exact cause was unclear, and U.S. and South Korean officials said there was no outward indication of North Korean involvement.

However, Defense Minister Kim Tae-young told lawmakers Monday that a floating mine dispatched from North Korea was one of several scenarios for the disaster. "Neither the government nor the defense ministry has ever said there was no possibility of North Korea's involvement," Kim said.

...

The disaster is one of South Korea's worst. Kim said Monday that the ship may have struck a mine left over from the war or deliberately dispatched from the North.

Many of the 3,000 Soviet-made naval mines North Korea planted in the waters off both coasts during the war were removed, but not all. Kim noted a North Korean mine was discovered as recently as 1984.

"North Korea may have intentionally floated underwater mines to inflict damage on us," Kim told lawmakers.
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SKorean president orders military on alert (AP)

eljefe, Mar 30, 2010

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Tugboat Facilitator RCWC Staff Admiral (Supporter)

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From the navy blogs I read/participate in, the original statement that it was most likely an accident is looking less and less likely as time goes by. It has been pointed out by USN officers in a position to know, that them ines from the Korean war have been well cleared at this point, making it very unlikely that it was an old mine. Suspects (other than the accident theory) are a newly-released surface mine, or a soviet-era wake-homing torpedo from one of NK's submarines.

Tugboat, Mar 30, 2010

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Most recent news reports from S.Korea:
-ship was damaged by an EXTERNAL explosion, not an internal one.
-SK govt orders all govt employees off furlough, vacation, etc until the crisis related to the Sinking is resolved.
-NK sub departed base 50 km away from the sinking a few days prior, and returned shortly afterwards.

Not damning evidence as yet, but it looks suspicious. It's probably NOT a mine, as that's not something that one would release by itself in the hopes of randomly hitting a SK warship. If you were looking to hit an enemy ship you'd release hundreds if not more. It's a big ocean, even in that 'little' armpit of water. Speculation on NK human torpedoes is not lkely to be true, as they have a top speed of around 2 kts, far slower than the Cheonan. While it's theoretically possible that one of Cheonan's DC's rolled off the rack armed and set for very shallow depth, such an explosion would not likely split the ship in two.

Tugboat, Mar 31, 2010

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eljefe Active Member

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Hmmm, I can't find any news stories confirming most of that information. Two of the latest stories:

BAENGNYEONG ISLAND (South Korea) - MINE-DETECTOR ships searched on Thursday for any signs that a South Korean warship was sunk by North Korea, as US President Barack Obama offered Seoul sympathy and support.
Almost six days after a 1,200-tonne corvette broke in two and sank near the tense North Korean border, the incident remains shrouded in mystery - adding to the anguish for families of 46 missing sailors.
Defence ministry and presidential officials have dismissed media reports that the ship had been tracking North Korean submarines at the time. 'There were no abnormal activities by North Korean submersible craft or submarines in relation to this incident,' ministry spokesman Won Tae Jae said.
Seoul has not cited any evidence the North was involved, although the defence minister has said a North Korean mine - either drifting or deliberately placed - might have caused the disaster. The disputed Yellow Sea border where the Cheonan went down on Friday was the scene of deadly naval clashes in 1999 and 2002 and of a firefight last November.
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Hunt for clues to naval disaster (Straights Times)

As more evidence surfaces about the sinking of the Navy corvette Cheonan on Friday, speculation is increasingly focusing on a possible attack from one of the North Korean semi-submersibles reportedly operated by crack teams and capable of carrying two torpedoes or mines.

Semi-submersible vessels weigh less than 300 tons and are smaller than submarines. The waters where the Cheonan sank are only 20 m to 30 m deep and difficult for North Korea's mainstay 1,800 ton Romeo class submarines to negotiate. North Korea allegedly uses the semi-submersibles when transporting spies on infiltration missions into South Korea. These flat boats approach coastal waters remaining mostly submerged under water and disappear completely under water as they near the coastline, which makes it extremely difficult to detect them. Defense Minister Kim Tae-young told lawmakers on Monday the semi-submersibles can fire two torpedoes and did not rule out that such a vessel may have attacked the Cheonan.

Kim Hak-song, the head of the National Assembly's Defense Committee, stoked speculation by saying he had heard that four North Korean semi-submersibles crossed south of the Northern Limit Line, but high-ranking military officers said the claim is unfounded.
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Speculation Focuses on N.Korean Semi-Submersibles (Chosun Ilbo)

eljefe, Apr 1, 2010

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Anachronus Well-Known Member

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The Korean war era mine story I read yesterday was a little unbelievable. I can see a battery lasting 9 years but 50+?

Anachronus, Apr 1, 2010

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The last Korean war-era mine was found in 1984. For it to be an old one is stretching credibility. Likewise, if NK wanted to release a new one, they'd launch more than one. Commentary on professional naval blogs is not leaning towards mines. The consensus could be wrong, but I want to hear what the divers are finding, and how big the underwater explosion is purported to have been.

Tugboat, Apr 1, 2010

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eljefe Active Member

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I agree we won't have any real data to go off of until divers are able to explore the wreck. Rampant speculation is still the rule of the day:

April 1, 2010 Seoul, South Korea
South Korean media continued to speculate Thursday about what caused the Cheonan warship to sink near the border with North Korea last week, as authorities called off efforts to find missing sailors for a second day due to weather.

Some reports cited satellite footage of a North Korean submarine disappearing and then reappearing around the time the Cheonan sunk last Friday as possible evidence of the North's involvement.

Officials, however, said the activity was normal. High-ranking military officials also dismissed as "unfounded" a claim by the head of parliament's defense committee that four North Korean semi-submersibles had crossed into South Korean territory, reports the Chosun Ilbo, a major daily.

The Kyunghyang Sinmun, an influential liberal newspaper, quoted experts raising the possibility that structural "fatigue failure" caused the ship to split in two. An explosion powerful enough to halve the 1,200 ton Cheonan would have been extremely loud, but no such sound was heard by guards or residents near the coast, the paper said.
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Impatience deepens in South Korea over Cheonan ship sinking (Christian Science Monitor)

April 2, 2010 - Military insiders believe there is mounting evidence that the Navy corvette Cheonan was hit by a North Korean torpedo before it broke in two and sank in waters near the de-facto inter-Korean border. But the Defense Ministry and military authorities insist on the importance of establishing the exact cause of the incident before any conclusions are announced.

A senior military officer on Thursday said, "There is a 60 to 70 percent chance that the ship was hit" by a North Korean torpedo. But he added the question remains whether any evidence was left behind.
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Suspicion of N.Korean Hand in Sinking Mounts (Chosun Ilbo)

eljefe, Apr 2, 2010

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SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

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Im going with something similar to the Tomorrow Never Dies plot....well atleast until there is more than just wild speculation.

SnipeHunter, Apr 2, 2010

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Knight4hire Active Member

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Makes me think of how wars have started in the past.
The first step is to sink a ship.

Knight4hire, Apr 2, 2010

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SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

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Or just blame someone when you dont know what really happened(and still dont).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1)

SnipeHunter, Apr 2, 2010

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eljefe Active Member

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One of the more complete descriptions of the Cheonan incident I've seen so far:

April 3 - Defense Minister Kim Tae-young said yesterday he thinks a torpedo attack is the more likely cause of the sinking of the Navy patrol ship Cheonan.

During a question-and-answer session on emergency matters at the National Assembly in Seoul, Kim said a torpedo attack and a sea mine blast were the two most likely causes of the tragedy, but he put more weight on the idea of a torpedo attack.
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Torpedo 'likely' cause of sinking (JoongAng Ilbo)

eljefe, Apr 2, 2010

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Posted By SnipeHunter on 02 Apr 2010 01:10 PM
Or just blame someone when you dont know what really happened(and still dont).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1)
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So who is Hearst this time?

Didn't the Rickover commission settle on an ammunition explosion due to a bunker fire?

Anachronus, Apr 2, 2010

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eljefe Active Member

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Posted By Anachronus on 02 Apr 2010 10:06 PM
So who is Hearst this time?

Didn't the Rickover commission settle on an ammunition explosion due to a bunker fire?
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It's funny you mention Hearst. I've noticed a definite difference between South Korean news sources reporting it's all but accepted fact that North Korea purposefully sank the Cheonan with a torpedo versus news outlets from the rest of the world being far more uncertain. The daily newspaper Chosun Ilbo seems to be the one most aggresively pushing North Korea as the culprit.
Rickover did indeed come to the conclusion the Maine sinking was due to an accidental internal explosion. However, many recent researchers have found problems with the Rickover investigation and raised new doubts about what the real cause was. I don't think we'll ever know for certain.

eljefe, Apr 2, 2010

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eljefe Active Member

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April 4 - The Navy began preparations for salvaging a South Korean warship that sank near the western sea border with North Korea 10 days ago after halting an underwater rescue operation for the ship's missing sailors, military officials said Sunday.
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Navy gearing up to salvage sunken warship (Jooang Ilbo)

eljefe, Apr 4, 2010

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Posted By El Jefe on 02 Apr 2010 10:34 PM

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Rickover did indeed come to the conclusion the Maine sinking was due to an accidental internal explosion. However, many recent researchers have found problems with the Rickover investigation and raised new doubts about what the real cause was. I don't think we'll ever know for certain.
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The thing that bugs me about a mine/torpedo is that I have never heard of anyone claiming credit for it or any evidence supporting it.
Of course it could have been Hearst that blew up the Maine! Eureka! Problem solved.

Anachronus, Apr 4, 2010

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eljefe Active Member

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That would close the loop with the "Tomorrow Never Dies" reference. Was William Randolph Hearst the prototype for Elliot Carver? I think we may have the makings of a great new conspiracy theory!
And the government is covering up the truth!

eljefe, Apr 5, 2010

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i think it was the north koreans with a mine by accident....... not really, it was a torp, they want a war....

Superarp, Apr 5, 2010

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