I've played in everything from 1v1 duels to fleet battles with 25+ ships, but only in Big Gun. I can write for pages about what makes a good ship-of-the-line, or how specialized roles like the torpedo-boat, torpedo-boat destroyer, convoy ship, and raider are best used in Big Gun fleet combat. But I'm just beginning to learn the different roles in Fast Gun. I have little idea what the roles are, much less how they interact, and what makes a particular ship fit a particular role. So how about, rather than discussing individual ships, we first discuss what the major roles in Fast Gun are? What are their objectives, and how do they fulfill them? Don't leave out the smaller ships, either. I notice this discussion is markedly bereft of ships smaller than 4 units.
I was hoping for a slightly more serious response. I doubt a triple-stern cruiser will see much success if it tries to act like a pre-dreadnought, yet both ships are 3.5 units.
Fodder Courageous, Furious, Alaska, Renown, Dunkerque, Lion. Long, narrow, single rudder. Targets Bait Iowa, Yamato, Vanguard, Richelieau, Nelson, Littorio Large boats with LOTS of target area. Capable of inflicting damage on the unaware, or out of commission boat, but due to poor maneuverability will not be able to sustain good gun position. A good haymaker will be able to get under their bow sidmounts and inflict heavy damage. Vulnerable to triple aft due to high free board. Good boat / captain combinations will eat them up. Pesky Light cruisers, destroyers, well run cruisers. Difficult to damage, but not terribly dangerous either. Just avoid them until they make a mistake. Actual Threat See initial post.
Your question would be best raised in a separate thread where it may not get quite so lost. (in fact, I think I will move these posts) But I'll give you a more serious response. Ships are what they are, Class/Units simply gives you an idea of how much stuff they get to bristle with. Things with no sidemounts that can zip around are best left to do that - zip around the edges, line up shots and take them, avoiding any real danger. Every now and then one can be used to run interference to try to break up an unfavorable engagement between other ships, or used as bait to pull away another ship. They're pesky and annoying, but generally can only do real damage to a ship if that ship is in a bad spot already. Things with sidemounts that are fast generally can be used to bring a faster enemy ship to bear, or to try to force away a slower ship from a friend without large risk to oneself. Fast things with sidemounts generally can help tackle an opposing ship and maneuver them to a position where your ground and pound ships can come grind and pound on them. Other fast things will attempt to peel them off and they will play turning games with eachother. These are unlike reindeer games. Things with sidemounts that are slow are generally short, turn well, and well protected by low freeboard, casemates and psychological warfare. They are usually lower in the water than the fast things and their short length and good turning allows them to bring guns around readily. They slog up to things that their faster friends have tackled and pound on them until they sink. Or they slog along side other slow things and pound at eachother, each captain choosing on their own if they actually have the upperhand and whether it fits them to attempt to use their good turning to leave. If they can catch you, slow things with sidemounts can generally put the hurt on. If you're playing convoy, BIG things like Iowas, Richeliues, Vanguards, Yamatos and such are good at sheltering convoy ships and absorbing bbs. If not, they just sort of sail around gathering holes and laughing. I do not think that in fast-gun you will generally find fleet battles to be as well organized as you may be used to in big-gun. Organization in my experience and from what I have seen and heard tale of seems to extend typically to small groups of 2-4 captains at a time. Important caveat: I haven't physically been to a regional or national event - I have been informed that such a deficiency leaves me uninformed. YMMV
If I may say, in my own view, I respect and like all the boats , each one is a game piece and when someone take on a boat some times you play the role the ship is limited too. I understand the Yomato is a big target to be shot at. In the past i didnt fully play the hole or "points" game I played for the enjoyment. But, I am trying to take more interest in the rules setting and points game play. And that's why I am justifying my self on the yomato build , I feel it will put myself up there as a contender and self satisfaction of owning one of the biggest ships. I believe Iowa was longer by 2" but is about 1 1\2 inches skinner. I didn't push to build this ship do to we already have one in our club. I also try to fill in the gaps, I had said in the past that not everyone can be on the same team. If so it would just be a parade and not a battle. Also , I like my cruiser but I run for about 3 minutes and then I'm calling 5 to reload :O , I'm trigger happy and about 60% effective on my shots being under the water line, mainly from not paying full attention and just running around like my head is cut off. But its fun and no one minds me being there B-) .
I see no category where Lil Scharnie fits in. Maybe 'Bait' since it draws a lot of fire. There are also differences in roles between local battles and Nats battles. A Vanguard or Yamato or Iowa would be the big fish at a local battle. There are lots of provisos about captain skill and maneuvering, but no one will want to park next to it solo. Maybe some idiot in an armoured cruiser, but no one serious
I have no experience with a ship like Lil Scharnie. If forced to guess I would call it Pesky Who would park where a Yamato, Iowa or Vanguard could pound on you. With a N. Carolina I would blast all that tasty expanse with triple afts. I Would not trade sidemounts with them. Any ship with a decent haymaker will be inside the effective range of their bow guns. Bring them on. Yummy
There are several roles: Raiders: cruisers, fast battlecruisers Skirmish ships: I-boats, VDT and the like. Sluggers: QE, Baden, and others. Fast multi role: NC, Nagato. (jack of all trades, master of none) Fleet ships: Iowa, Yammer, Vanguard, Jean Bart (maybe) Fire support: KGV, VV, Scharnhorst Close in fire support: SD
Kotori, in general fast gun ships fall under one of two tactical categories: "Run & Gun" includes both the "pesky cruiser / dd" and "fast BB / big BC" groups. They mainly use their speed to get into & out of furballs, chase down cripples, etc. "Hug & Slug" are the slower BC's, DN's, and AC's (Hi Tuggy!). They are the "ground & pound" boats that use their superior turning & casement / armor-belt heavy toughness to get in and tear up balsa. Often in fleet battles, the faster ships will try and lure enemy major units into position to be pounced on by the Dreadnought fleet of 28 / 26 second boats. Any Iowa or Bis that gets penned in with 3-4 DN's is in BIG trouble. They have two options at that point: Hunt for an opening to sprint away, or hope their teammates come in and rescue them. Meanwhile the Cruiser/dd crowd lurk around the edges, sniping at targets of opportunity & chasing down the ships on "Five". Make sense?
Just curious where does Bismarck fit in? I used it for mulit roles and found it pretty effective. I used Yamato in small and large engagements and found it effective. Depends on your enemies tactics and the battle situation too. I remember a battle where at the start Yamato and Musashi and Scharnhorst and Nagato formed up side by side and we backed in slowly on the allied fleet which consisted of Warspite, South Carolina, Nelson, Cumberland, and a couple of others. . We let loose a barrage of stern cannons simultaneously. The effect was more physcological but it was funny to see the ships and the Captains look on with bewilderment and this caused them to freeze in the moment. We had Nagato and Scharnhorst pincer move them by flanking them and we closed in between them with our sidemounts. Caught it on video and it was hiliarous. So in that case it was for intimidating the opposition.
It would depend on captain skill. Due to length and high free board a Bismarck would be fodder in the hands of an unskilled captain. It has the potential to be a threat in the hands of a skilled captain due to its superior single drive dual rudder drive setup. The Bismarcks that I have faced I viewed as targets.
Bismarck waffles between fleet and multi-role. It has good maneuverability and firepower but is also kinda big. Depends on the captain and his wingman as well as the opposing fleet's makeup.
I strongly suspect there are other roles that you guys have missed/misidentified/overlooked, but I won't know more until I get more experience with Fast Gun. Gotta finish my **** boat.... Curt's example from a fleet battle is an excellent example of why you can't consider just 1v1 roles.
Keep in mind that the two categories I listed are generalities... a "Run & Gun" vs a "Hug & Slug" is just an emphasis, not an exclusive tactic. Some ships are very poorly suited to do one or the other (my Baden doing "Run & Gun" at 28 seconds wouldn't be pretty*). Bismark, with 24 second speed, is fine at the run & gun. It's sidemounts & massive reserve buoyancy means it can soak up hits while doing the hug & slug as well. It's not as GOOD at it as a WW1 DN with low freeboard & casements, but it can whistle the tune. Cruisers and smaller, since they are not allowed sidemounts (for safety reasons) are default run & guns. The exception there is the AC's such as WW1 Scharney. Low, casemented to H&ll and back, and very nimble, it can hug, spin out and deliver sterns, then hug some more. *Ironically, right now my Baden is configured to do "Spin & gun" with quad sterns and no sidemounts as an experiment.
Probably the 'Things with sidemounts that are fast' category. Turning ability and a well placed armor belt offer additional role flexibility. All these of course depend on the captain in question, and how well they and their teammates opt to work together. I wrote my responses with larger engagements in mind. Re-reading the thread, I don't see much 1v1 thinking, outside perhaps @Maxspin could be read that way. Looking forward to the analysis.
Been in the hobby a few years and for fast gun there is nothing like the National event. So I would break this up: 1. never traveling, will only battle local - build what you want, you know who/what is on the water 2. Maybe go to a large regional 3. NATS bound- Tactics and, Oh my god look at all the ships! For me the biggest difference I see is tactics. Any captain by themselves is just a captain. Get two captains to go after that single ship, and the single ship will have a bad day (going to have to do some patching). Roles are defined by captains and ability. I know a few hug and slug captains that would and have sucked in a cruiser as they don't have the ability to wait for opportunity, instead they blast into a situation and get hammered. For me a great combo is a QE (sidemounts) with a Sodak (tripples) as a support ship.
