Ships that can play both sides?

Discussion in 'General' started by wdodge0912, May 17, 2019.

  1. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    Posts:
    513
    Location:
    Owosso, MI
    So I'm wondering what ships could be captained for both Axis or Allied, specifically at a Nats. Is there any kind of time length that ship would have to have served during war on one side or the other to make it eligible, or is when it comes to Nats is it just on the side of whoever built the ship? or as long as it served both for any period of time, could it be captained under either?

    with that said as well, I would assume that if a ship could be captained for either side, the captian must choose which side beforehand and cannot switch sides? or is there something for that as well, maybe designated times?

    I am just wondering as I have the SMS Posen, the HMAS Australia, and a Duca cruiser. The Duca did serve for Italy, but after the Italian Armistice, it did some work for the Allies as well for a little bit towards the end of the war.

    I perused the rules, but didnt see anything, but if it's in there, I probably missed it. Tiny phone screen is tiny, and just skimming though I doubt I would have caught it.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  2. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Posts:
    584
    Location:
    Michigan
    Prinz Eugen is a side flipper. Was taken as a war prize by Britain then given to the USA as payment on Lend/Lease. She was commissioned by the USA and was headed to join the pacific fleet when war ended.
     
  3. WillCover

    WillCover -->> C T D <<-- Captain (Supporter)

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Posts:
    622
    Location:
    Harrison, Michigan
    To bad she was only designated a IX unclassified miscellaneous and not renamed and designated a CA aka USS Germantown:laugh:
     
    NickMyers likes this.
  4. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Posts:
    584
    Location:
    Michigan
    She still fights at 3.5 units allied though?
     
  5. NickMyers

    NickMyers Admin RCWC Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Posts:
    4,394
    Location:
    Federal Way, WA
    She wasn't on her way to join the fleet in any sort of combat capacity. The US didn't even really want her and had trouble even keeping her propulsion operational once they sent the germans home.
     
  6. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,562
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    Generally ships considered neutral (that actually get built) originate from Spain, France, Argentina, some Italian, maybe austria, probably a few I'm forgetting. Sides get picked usually on Sunday night before Nats once we see who shows up and what they plan on battling. Neutral ships side comes down to captain desires and a discussion between the two fleet admirals. If a captain is 'hard over' on what side they want to battle on then that wish is typically honored. If they are indifferent then the fleet admirals try to balance things out. There will be people that can complain about historic injustices in about how sides were picked but I would take all of those stories with a pound or two of salt.

    Looks like there is a strong historical basis for Duca to fight on either side. I would not recommend showing up to an event with a Prinz Eugen with a notion that it can be an allied ship. If you make a large hissy fit then your wish might be granted. Secondary ships typically face less scrutiny, we try to remember its toy boats. And as always, don't believe everything you hear on a forum
     
    rcaircraftnut and wdodge0912 like this.
  7. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    Posts:
    3,206
    Still commissioned in the USN, still counts. I've fought alongside a USS Prinz Eugen before. Other options that come to mind include French and Italian ships, the Viribus Unitis class ships that were transferred to the French and Italians, and a few American destroyers taken over by the Japanese. Getting balanced teams is very important, a close fight is way more fun for everyone than a lopsided victory.
     
    rcaircraftnut and modelshipsahoy like this.
  8. Commodore

    Commodore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Posts:
    233
    Location:
    Sunny TX
    It's not explicitly stated, but one of those "understood" things. If you show up with something Japanese, German, Italian, people will expect you to play on the Axis side. If you show up with something British, American, French, Russian, people will expect you to play on the Allied side.

    If you show up with something Spanish, Swedish, Brazilian, you get the idea, well, there's some flexibility there, do what you want.

    If you show up with a "Yavuz", or USS Zrinyi, or WWI Kongo, ...
    (Did you know that IJN Kongo bombarded the German base at Tsingtao in WWI???)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tsingtao

    Anyway ... Yeah. If you try to pull a stunt like that, you'd better have some really good documentation, and expect that there will be people who will be unhappy with you regardless of whether you're right.

    As for the French, and all the others, for that matter, one thing to remember and expect is that in a situation where one side (Allied/Axis) has a significant advantage over the other, it's quite possible that you will experience some pressure (or the CD might just assign you) to "help" the disadvantaged fleet.

    So, the answer is that yes, there are ships that can play both sides, and yes, your Duca is technically one of them. Just be aware that there are people who may be unhappy if you do it.

    :p

    (Saying this as someone who has taken a French cruiser to Nats multiple times, and played both sides of the fence with it. Occasionally during the same week.)
     
    rcaircraftnut and wdodge0912 like this.
  9. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    Posts:
    513
    Location:
    Owosso, MI
    That's a bit of relief for me. I still haven't decided what side I want to be (I have a want list a mile long), and with the 3 ships I have, seems that once they are fit for battle I can play either side, with the Duca a backup for them. The Australia is battle ready, so I'll get the Duca going next, then the Posen. I'll run the Duca as a secondary to whatever ship I bring to Nats, when I'm ready, hopefully next year if everything works out. If my dad gets into the hobby, he can be on the same side as me with the Duca too.
     
  10. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Posts:
    584
    Location:
    Michigan
    Why would it even come to a skipper who put up his hard earned cash and showing up with a USN ship commissioned in wartime having to throw hissy fit?

    Americans served aboard her flying the stars & stripes. That’s documented. Side flippers are a blessing to this hobby. Anything that excludes the paying customers, and creates an imbalanced competition should be discouraged.

    My son wanted to play soccer... he was placed on the crappiest team in the league. He fought hard and lost every game.... the next year we found out that the league doesn’t shuffle the deck and he would have to play on the same crappy team and get beat over and over again for the next four years.... he quit soccer.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
    rcaircraftnut likes this.
  11. buttsakauf

    buttsakauf Admiral (Supporter)

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Posts:
    694
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    I tend to agree that a commissioned ship is a commissioned ship however unpopular that might be. I also favor flag based teams (red vs blue for example) that disregard nationalities entirely so that the teams can be balanced as well as possible.

    My philosophy is build the ship you like the best and the organizer should provide the best balanced teams to maximize the fun you can have with said ship. Camaraderie should easily bridge toy boat nationalities.
     
  12. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    Posts:
    513
    Location:
    Owosso, MI
    I didnt mean to stir the pot on anything, I was just curious about the Duca, as I have right now an operational Allied ship. I mean I'd love to have enough ships that it wouldn't matter what side I got placed on, but with wanting to make it to my first Nats in a year or 2, I just wanted to be sure I can take advantage of the secondary ship with what I have. Maybe by then I'll have another ship and all 4 will be battle ready by then, who knows (I doubt it, but it could happen)

    And I have a mile long lost of ships I want. so no issues there as building a ship I want, bit then wanting to captian on the other team. If I ever win the lottery, I'd build me a small fleet lol.
     
  13. bsgkid117

    bsgkid117 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Posts:
    669
    Location:
    NJ
    Huh, that's odd, I didn't realize the war was still going on in December '45 when she was awarded to the US as a war prize.

    Its a german boat. Germans have never been allied. Easy enough for me to understand. But it's not the hugest of huge deals either way.
     
  14. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Posts:
    584
    Location:
    Michigan
    Oops. Corrected via edit.... but still can’t disqualify this as a valid allied ship.

    War was still on May 7th when she was surrendered. Was an allied ship May 8 1945.

    Became American inside the timeline for IRCWCC.

    They have any ship launched before Dec 31, 1946 as valid. It’s an allied ship inside the timeline allowed.
    06D863E4-DC1D-4569-ACF2-0546BF94B9B6.jpeg
     
  15. thegeek

    thegeek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Posts:
    1,164
    Location:
    Mongo
    Bovine scatology, it didn't fight for the Allied ever.

    Italians are Axis. French are neither, just sit on the beach and get pounded.

    I know I'm a old white guy with strong historical views, so shoot me or my ship.
     
  16. SnipeHunter

    SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2007
    Posts:
    1,333
    Per the rules there aren't defined sides, so any ship can fight on any side.

    The very first thing in the Battle section of the rules.
    1. Ships shall be divided by mutual agreement into two fleets, and launched at a mutually
    agreed time.

    That's it, that's what it says about fleet composition.

    Even at NATS it's not always straight Axis v Allies. It's still fun, we're not a very historically accurate hobby anyway.
     
    rcaircraftnut and NickMyers like this.
  17. thegeek

    thegeek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Posts:
    1,164
    Location:
    Mongo
    Great news, USS MUSASHI. USS NASSAU
    MAKE THE ALLIED GREAT AGAIN.
     
    Maxspin likes this.
  18. modelshipsahoy

    modelshipsahoy Vendor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Posts:
    584
    Location:
    Michigan
    Nor did any ship on any side completed in 1946... yet there they are... valid per the wording of the IRCWCC rules.
     
  19. SnipeHunter

    SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2007
    Posts:
    1,333
    Didn't you fight the Moo as allied in like 2003? Is that the last time the Allies were "GREAT"?? ;)
     
  20. thegeek

    thegeek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Posts:
    1,164
    Location:
    Mongo
    Yup won most feared then. Best nats ever, the food from Luigis can't be equaled.