Ships that can play both sides?

Discussion in 'General' started by wdodge0912, May 17, 2019.

  1. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

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    Damage taking ability is primarily driven by balsa quality and prep, pump outlet configuration, and water channeling/internal arrangements for stability. Small changes in hull size (+/- 6 inches, +/- 5 lbs) won't have much impact if you don't get the previous 3 things right.

    Country-affiliation of ships is only relevant for a nationals. If you are planning to make it in the future, great

    Hull availability is a key factor. Out of the list above you might find a Moltke, otherwise you are in the wood-hull from scratch category, which is not insurmountable.

    Out of your list I'd put Almirante Latorre at the top as far as potential capability (speed+units). Similar to Agincourt that I run. You could probably get an iron duke hull and stretch the middle to get something close. Gangut turret arrangement isn't great and doesn't give a lot of options. Another neutral one you could consider is Rivadavia. Essentially a Baden with more turrets and single rudder. 28 sec though. I have one, Brian Koehler is building one as well.

    Ship performance depends more on the builder than specifics of the ship, so build what you'd like
     
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  2. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

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    I'm also making a mold for WWI Kongo, and should have hulls available within the next couple months
     
  3. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    I do plan to make it to a Nats. actually getting there is another story. I always prepared for the big events when I raced, and want to do the same in this hobby. With the possibility of Nats being held in Saranac, I will for sure make it when it's there next.

    Seems like the Moltke/Yavuz would be the most possible to find. and what I should look for.

    If not, I will go with the Almirante Latorre then.
     
  4. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    Do you know where I could possibly get plans for the Almirante Latorre? I'd like the later one after refit. I know Strike has HMS Canada plans, so that would be the early version, but the refit with the extra width would be nice to build, give me extra room to work with.

    However, 2 big reasons for me sticking to just one capitol ship and one cruiser may alleviate themselves here shorty. new job and moving to a bigger place.
     
  5. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

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    Taubman has some listed. I don’t know if it’s bulged version or not. Adding buldges to plans wouldn’t be too hard, there’s a good picture of it in dry dock. Just add them to the existing hull sections. I think the buldged version could be pretty competitive, I might add it to my long term list. Could be a sort of poor mans (allied) Nagato, without speed or 3rd sidemount but with some thug-ability
     
  6. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    I've thought about making a hull for the bulged version but have never been able to find plans - I read somewhere that the bulges were similar to those fitted on the QE Class. Have never seen the dry dock photo.
     
  7. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

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    I’d buy one (or two) if you’d make a mold. There’s good shots of it in drydock in the 30’s, and a good large model with pictures online. If you can’t find them I can post them here when I get on the computer. Google is pretty good nowadays
     
  8. Lou

    Lou It's just toy boats -->> C T D <<-- Admiral (Supporter)

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  9. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    I've just ordered the plans for Spanish CL Eugenia, which can battle on either the Axis or Allied side: 2.5 units. The hull will be deepened a bit for extra displacement. Similar to British E class CLs.

    I've contacted Strike again re buying back my molds for the Spanish CAs Canarias and Baleares. They're essentially Kent Class cruisers with a different superstructure and slightly different dimensions. I made the hull mold intermediate in size so the hulls would be legal for use as Kent or Canarias Class ships.
     
  10. crzyhawk

    crzyhawk Well-Known Member

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    I hope you're able to get it back, it would be good to have access to Counties again.
     
  11. Bob Pottle

    Bob Pottle Well-Known Member

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    I have very good plans from Taubmann for HMS Dorsetshire and started a plug suitable for both the London and Dorsetshire Classes (identical hulls) that I was building simultaneously with the bulged Kent/Canarias plug in the late 1990s. The plug was 75% done when I gave it to another NABS member to complete but never saw it again.

    I still have the Dorsetshire plans and it's on my build list for a mold - I'd like to build it and paint it in China Station colours (white hull, buff superstructure). I've had to return to work nearly full time and delay retirement 2 years (divorce is expensive!) so have had much less time than expected to work on plugs and molds. The Java plug is 9 months overdue for completion.

    No luck in getting the molds for the Kent and Canarias back so far. I might have to make another hull mold - I still have the plans with the intermediate dimensions so the hull is 'legal' size for either, plus the plans I drew for the tower bridge and trunked funnels on the Spanish ships.
     
  12. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    Dont mean to revive an old tread, but was reading up on some ships and had a question that pertains to the topic exactly, and even a ship that has been discussed. Just a thought and figured I'd throw it out to the ones more knowledgeable than I when it comes to this.

    The Admiral Hipper class of cruisers had a Lutzow that was then sold to the Soviets, and renamed to the Petropavlovsk, and later the Tallinn.

    Now I know the ship was never finished. But it was launched, saw action and sunk, before being raised and renamed to the Tallinn. It's also not like some crazy super ship, as it would be able to be ran as the Admiral Hipper under the German Flag.

    I'd also like to point out the exception for the Jean Bart, as it wasn't finished during the war but did see action and was sunk. When it was finished, it was finished later outside of the December 31st 1946 cutoff date, which as finished also gets it an extra half unit.

    With the Lutzow/Petropavlovsk Admiral Hipper class, I'm not asking about anything other than just taking an Admiral Hipper class and running it under the Soviet Flag. No extra units or anything like that. Built just as one world build an Admiral Hipper or Prinz Eugen, but with a Soviet flag.

    Also from information I can find (which includes an actual Russian website in Russian), it was the same length and beam as the Prinz Eugen, so building one wouldn't need any kind of shrinking of a hull available for the ship, since there is 2 entries on the ship list for Hipper, and then also 1 for the Prinz Eugen, all different lengths.

    There's also the Prinz Eugen/ USN commission thing that was discussed earlier too, but let's not rehash that.

    Also this isn't that I need to keep ships to a minimum and trying to consolidate down; I'm aiming for 4 total ships, 2 axis, and 2 Allied. If the ship can be ran as a Soviet, I could have a speedy secondary, and a predread secondary on either side, that can flip but would be primarily opposite sides

    And it's only for the potential to swap sides with a secondary being ran as a secondary if (read when) my primary gets sunk
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  13. thegeek

    thegeek Well-Known Member

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    All battles other than Nationals are generally very lenient as to dates and ships on what side. Nationals not so much,
     
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  14. Renodemona

    Renodemona Well-Known Member

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    Anything other than nats is pretty much flag/no flag or yellow vs green or something. At nats we decided this year that secondaries could run the same country as a primary even if they weren't technically able to as long as they were clearly marked. We used big US and French flags for a couple cruisers. I don't think you'd have too much problem with that as long as it was clear and you didn't want to say battle primary Allied and secondary Axis in the same battle. We get that people can't build infinite ships to cover everything. Sometimes you plan to be axis or allied then for whatever reason have to go the other way. We're pretty mellow as long as its fair and easy for everyone.

    All that being said, the Italian heavy cruisers are beautiful and play either side regardless so could get away with 1 cruiser total. I'm working on a Bolzano.

    The Soviets did finish their German cruisers though I can't speak to how "operational" they were with weird mixed armaments and such but I think for our hobby if you built a Prinz Eugen and if you were battling allied at nats put a big soviet flag on it when you battled it, nobody would have a big heart attack. If you brought it as your Primary ship, eh, well, that might be a discussion for another thread lol
     
  15. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    This is what I was looking for.

    I'd only run it as an Allied under the Soviet flag if my primary capital ship was Allied ship.

    Having only a max of 4 ships, one being a predreadnought, and that Axis or Allied dedicated capitals being a better idea than dedicated cruisers, I just wanted to make sure I coild run it on both sides to match whatever capital I decided to bring to a Nats. And with the Lutzow being sold, renamed, and used by the Soviets, although incomplete, would be allowed as a secondary to be ran under the Soviet flag.
     
  16. bsgkid117

    bsgkid117 Well-Known Member

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    There is no exception for Jean Bart. The date you listed isn't for completed, it's for launched. The rules state:

    Only combat ships which were launched between January 1, 1905 and December 31, 1946, and were completed.

    Lutzow/Petropavlovsk/Tallinn was never completed and commissioned into service. Therefore, it is not applicable to the ruleset. If it was a primary ship at NATs, you'd most likely catch some flak. If it was a secondary ship at NATs and was properly identified, it would be no big deal provided primary ship was allied.

    At a regionals, nobody would care.
     
  17. daisycutter

    daisycutter Active Member

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    I know this may not be in vogue anymore but I think ship i.d. is important and have already seen mass confusion when a ship is not battling on the correct side. Technically there is no current rule but is up to the CD. Why not just build a ship and fight it on the correct side? Things change so this is just my 2 cents well maybe 1 cent
     
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  18. wdodge0912

    wdodge0912 Well-Known Member

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    I read the rule as both launched and cokleted before the cutoff date. That's my bad.

    And yes, it would only be ran as a secondary at Nats.

    I'm wife limited to a total of 4 ships. I want to have a predreadnought and be able to play both teams at Nats, not at the same time, but that I could go there for either side.

    I'll be running my primary ship (class 4+) as the side they should be on. It's the secondary ship for if/when I get sunk to run in the second sortie. Having 2 ships for secondaries, and wanting a Predreadnought, I also want a cruiser for that last ship. But if I went dedicated for both predread and the crusier, then I wouldnt have a cruiser for one side, hence wanting a cruiser that as a secondary, could play both sides.

    Right now the plan is
    Some allied capital ship (class 4+)
    Baden
    Verite
    And the Prinz Eugen, since it sounds like it would be allowed to flip sides as a secondary.

    The only thing would be with the Eugen as an Allied secondary, would it be allowed to participate in a crusier only battle? If I go to a Nats as an Allied captian, using an Allied ship for a primary and it as a secondary under the Soviet flag, when it comes to crusier battling, would it be allowed? I know there is the rule that secondaries must run in the same fleet, so we'd it be allowed to be Allied in a crusier only battle? I'm going to assume if I was an Allied captain and was using it for a secondary, with the same fleet rule I wouldn't be allowed to be Axis for that battle, even though then it would be the primary ship? Since it's crusier only?
     
  19. daisycutter

    daisycutter Active Member

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    Please do not take this in a disrespectful way but why not build a Axis 4.5 unit ship and not build a Allied one? I know of a Fluegel VDT and all the goodies that will be for sale.
     
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  20. thegeek

    thegeek Well-Known Member

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    Axis smell bad.
     
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