Shore battery

Discussion in 'Ship Plans' started by Nick Park, Sep 17, 2015.

  1. TorpCruiser

    TorpCruiser Active Member

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    An easy way to make shore batteries “unavoidable” is to have a scenario in which the ships MUST go past them to enter a cove/harbor, to attack convoy ships or whatever or they could be at the mouth of a canal...
     
  2. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    To summarize.
    Shore batteries are only used in Campaign (2 hours a year)
    You only get points in Campaign with Convoy ships (no points for holes in ships)
    You will be using a captain that could be running a scoring boat
    BBs from fixed positions are easy to avoid
    Our knock down targets are in the middle of the lake - no reload
    Last Campaign - 20 Knock down targets were down in seconds :crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:
     
  3. TorpCruiser

    TorpCruiser Active Member

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    Why only twice a year?
    Why are the knock-down targets in the middle of the lake and not attached to the shore batteries themselves?? AND why are they so easy to knock down??
    The shore batteries would NOT be "easy to avoid" if the knock down targets were affixed to the shore batteries themselves.

    Scenario: Invasion fleet prepping for landing MUST "destroy" (disable via knock-down targets) shore batteries to allow convoy/landing ships safe passage.

    The knock-down targets could even be set up to only disable certain functions of the battery:

    1) Elevation
    2) Depression
    3) Rotation
    4) A complete knock-out stops it from firing...

    So, up to 4 different knock-down targets per gun/emplacement/battery.
     
  4. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    RULES SAY
    In the middle of the targets
    Watch my Bradford 2016 Video

    You can do what you want in local battles
    At NATS these would have to be RULE CHANGES
     
  5. SnipeHunter

    SnipeHunter Well-Known Member

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    Targets are only used in campaign which is only twice a year at NATS, why? mostly because it takes a LOT of captains for campaign and local/regional events don't really have enough to make it worth the effort. Also a lot of people would rather just fleet battle.

    Knock down targets used to be (and still can be) on the edge/shore of the pond. One time we tried them as floating in the middle of the pond and turned out it was more fun that way so kept doing it.

    They've gotten easier to knock down as guns have gotten better but there really isnt a standard on how easy/hard they need to be other than something our guns can knock down/break. Typically at the start of campaign a lot of BBs get thrown at them pretty quick so most go down fast, getting the last one or two can take a little bit depending on skill/luck. If you make them harder to knock down is that good or bad? I dunno, probably depends on what you think of them and how they impact the rest of campaign.

    Shore batteries (like every other gun in the hobby) CAN'T be allowed to elevate to shoot above level, that's a non-starter. Otherwise having different knock down targets do different things to a shore battery would be fun, more complex which has it's own issues but all manageable.

    As I mentioned earlier <cough> 7 years ago <cough> something like a fixed position triple turret with unlimited ammo that could control a small area next to port or the targets could be pretty cool and a neat addition to the game. And building a shore battery to only use a couple times a year is the same as the guys that build campaign specific warships they only use a couple of times a year and nobody really bats an eye at that. To each their own.
     
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  6. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see someone build a shore battery.


    People build boats to use 2 times a year because they score points.
    Also the battery is at home port, that means it will be at least 5 minutes
    for a target to come into range. (plenty of time to disable it)
     
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  7. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    I always thought it would be FUN to build a shore battery. NO Motors, no props no pump etc.
    There are some sticky points that I have mentioned.
    I had most of the engineering figured out. Not sure how to set-up a disable switch
    on a 360 degree foam board.

    I just spend a lot of my time getting BBs out of my boat :bang::bang::bang::bang::crying:
     
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  8. Panzer

    Panzer Iron Dog Shipwerks and CiderHaus

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    Welp, Nats looks like mite be Michigan in 2023, so I am looking forward to seeing your Shore battery on our pond. Cant wait to see how you rig it up !!!!! Good luck and looking forward to seeing you on the water.
     
  9. NickMyers

    NickMyers Admin RCWC Staff

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    Just a reminder for those that require it -- remain civil in interactions, or your posts will be removed.
    (We will also remove associated posts / replies to those offending posts that will no longer make sense with the offending post having been removed)
     
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  10. Justin Ragucci

    Justin Ragucci Well-Known Member

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    disable switch is easy it doesn’t say what kind of target it has to be to knock it out so I was thinking a super hard 3lb plinking target which is only probably going to get knocked down by trips. That when knocked down would fall on a switch that would disable the gun. Also considering how the rules were written I could propose we put the targets on the shore so we can you know use said shore battery from the shore. But I do plan on pushing the rules to the max since they are vague.
     
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  11. Justin Ragucci

    Justin Ragucci Well-Known Member

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    If this works out well and the shore battery is somewhat effective I’ll probably propose a rule for a triple or dual setup with no ammo cap. make a fort drum kind of setup and just roll with that.
     
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  12. Boatmeister

    Boatmeister Active Member

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    Would be fun to do an results based convoy. Use the shore batteries for the forward and home bases with a harbor that the gun could get below the waterline hit on a convoy ship and if the ship survives in the harbor for like 10 minutes then the invasion was successful. The battery would be disabled for 15 minutes so timing would be of the essence. Involve some strategy and some luck. Wouldn't be the same thing everyone doesn't like. Just a thought
     
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  13. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    If you had the disable switch on the beach it would be easy.
    get something like a soup can lid and have it held up with a small magnet in an L configuration.
    Lid and magnet are connected with a wire to complete the connection -
    lid is hit - falls - breaks the connection to the solenoid

    Plus you get a satisfying PLING when hit.:):)
    If on the beach it gives you an option to reload.
     
  14. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about having a strait passage scenario. General idea would be set up 4 stakes along shore in a box, about 6-8 ft wide and maybe 10ft of shoreline. Each fleet could set up some amount of shore batteries, maybe 6 units combined however they want, max of 3 guns per turret/close proximity. All convoy ships would need to pass through the strait once per run. No combat ships allowed in strait, or able to fire on convoys while they are in the strait, convoys must proceed through without stopping or reversing course. Shore batteries would be able to pivot or depress, but not translate/move, can’t reload, must operate by radio control. Probably get rid of a disabling target. Convoy ships have the power with current campaign rules, so I think making shore batteries remotely useful could be a plus. Probably would want the rule to be discretionally, up to admirals whether to have (basically only if someone brought a shore battery). What do active irc battlers that attend nats think?
     
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  15. Justin Ragucci

    Justin Ragucci Well-Known Member

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    Kevin,

    I am on board with that 100% I was going to bring a rule proposing that shore batteries be at least dual cannons if not triples to NATs this year and to have some other changes to the shore battery rules. If we did it with a strait I would say yes get rid of the targets as they wouldn’t be needed since they would be on a board where they wouldn’t get shot. I would say maybe bump the max to 8 due to not getting a reload. But I would definitely work with you on writing something up for it. Going to bring one this year to see how useful it is. But either way would be the first one in the hobby I believe ever or in a very very very long time.
     
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  16. Kotori87

    Kotori87 Well-Known Member

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    While none of what I'm about to show is from Fast Gun, I believe it may be of some use. Big Gun has been using shore batteries effectively for decades now. They only really show up in Campaign Games and other special events, but they do serve a purpose and they are able to perform their role.
    CLICK THE PICTURES, THEY GET BIGGER!
    IMG_0036.JPG IMG_2962 (2).JPG

    CONSTRUCTION
    The basic armament of a Big Gun shore battery is a either a twin 1/4" cannon or a triple 7/32" cannon. They can be either sinkable or unsinkable. A sinkable shore battery is a 12" x 12" box, with the front-towards-enemy face sheeted in heavy 3/16" balsa. This is heavier than the heaviest battleship armor, but it *can* be penetrated at very close range with a good, square hit. It also gets one battleship-sized pump for damage control. Just like a ship, if you shoot enough holes then it will sink and it's out of the fight.
    IMG_2989 (2).JPG IMG_0030.JPG

    An un-sinkable shore battery must also present at least 12" of 3/16" armor for penetrability and scoring purposes, although it does not need to free-flood. To disable the shore battery, there is a target, just above the waterline, that will turn off power to the battery when hit. Flipping the switch requires a good hit from close range. Too weak, too bad angle, etc. and it just keeps on shooting. Note how the example below uses shore-based air and power, and has easy access to the twin tube magazines for reloading.
    IMG_1179 (2).jpg IMG_1117 (2).jpg IMG_1069 (2).jpg

    USAGE
    The shore batteries were always used to protect docks with targets. The docks, targets, and requirements changed a lot, depending on the individual bringing the dock. The arrangement of the dock and shore battery also changed, depending on the specific installation. Sometimes the battery was immediately adjacent to the dock, sometimes it was placed opposite the dock, forcing a choice between shooting the dock and the battery. People were always creative about trying new things to give good firing angles and present tactical dilemmas to marauding raiders. When I first started, shore batteries were protected by minefields, strings of fishing line suspended by bobbers. The mines were a potent defense, able to disable even the largest battleships directly under the guns of the battery. We found, however, that minefields were a terrible experience overall, and minefields were removed entirely from the rules after a few years.
    IMG_2954 (2).JPG IMG_2961 (2).JPG
    A shore battery installation from 2005 used natural terrain as a defense. In order to attack the docks, you would have to sail inside the log, which severely limits maneuverability and forces larger battleships to present a perfect broadside target to the batteries. The covered triple battery was not very effective, because the gunner couldn't aim effectively. The other shore battery used trees on top of its large pie-tin cupola as both disguise and aiming aid, and performed much better.
    IMG_7162.jpg IMG_7172.jpg
    A later shore battery set opposite its dock. The attacking Dutch Battlecruiser had to choose between shooting at the dock or the battery. It wasn't quite perfect, since the battery had a poor firing angle on the raider.
    IMG_7387.jpg IMG_7389.jpg IMG_7448.jpg
    Another later shore battery, this time on the other side of the pond. It was quite effective at driving off an Iowa, and it had a commanding view of the battlefield. Despite the excellent field of fire and a number of good "straddles", it never actually hit anything more than 8 feet away. Round shot through smooth bore barrels, aimed from several feet away, is just not that accurate of a firing method. Also note the large block targets on the dock, with a 1" pin to hold them against wind. A single hit was usually enough to knock a target off.
    IMG_7553.JPG
    A good overview of a sinkable shore battery. Triple 7/32" cannon, rotation and elevation mechanism, CO2 bottle, bilge pump, and battery. Pretty simple.
    IMG_2955 (2).JPG
    A delightful set of dock targets. Heavy enough to stay in place through the wind, light enough to get blown off when hit. And, of course, in shallow water so anything that does get away can be recovered and reset afterwards.
    Note: we did also regularly use crackers of various sorts for targets, but I don't have any photos of them on dock targets. Also a popular choice among the local fish.

    Overall, shore batteries were built by several people for various reasons. At campaigns, they were often back-up systems loaned to captains whose ships were not combat-capable, or brought by captains who didn't want to repair the extensive damage most ships took during campaigns. The people who operated such batteries said they often went long stretches just sitting and relaxing, broken up by periods of furious fighting. Overall, a wholly different experience from operating the many varieties of warship, or the timid/fearful boredom of driving a convoy ship. No shore battery, by its guns alone, changed the course of a campaign. Most often they were treated as local hazards. I often tried to lure opponents close to a friendly battery, either by feigning a problem or by taking a less-than-favorable engagement, in order to trap them against bushes, docks, or other terrain.

    HOW FAST GUN CAN LEARN FROM THIS
    Having fought in many Big Gun campaigns and two different Fast Gun campaigns, I am firmly of the opinion that the current incarnation of Fast Gun campaign rules needs to be scrapped wholesale and rebuilt from scratch. Fast Gun overall does a lot of things right, but campaign is not one of those things. That said, I am currently stationed on the wrong coast to push a proper campaign through, so I can at least help with this.

    Please, consider the following for a future revision of shore battery rules.
    Construction: a 12" x 12" floating box. Armament is one rotating turret with 2x 75-round cannons or 3x 50-round cannons. Same total ammunition, different output rate. 1/2-unit pump and standard penetrable sides, OR a 2-inch-diameter target, no more than 1/2 inch above the floating waterline, to disable the battery. Such a disabling target should trigger the mechanism with the same drop test that ship hulls are tested with. Can be pulled from combat and reloaded with the standard five-minute count. Should be placed near the dock targets and port it is meant to defend. I'm not sure about sink value. It has 3.5 units onboard but has no propulsion, and would likely get slaughtered once it goes on five. Wrap this up into standard rulebook legalese and you've got a solid foundation for shore battery operations.
     

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  17. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    As a side note, in Saranac the bridge is across a strait 30' wide.
    pass through and go around the island.
     
  18. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    "Probably get rid of a disabling target". -This would have to be a part of shore battery rule changes.
    Knocking down a target is too easy. Nothing we build should last seconds
    A better limiting factor, # of guns # of BBs.
    Also let it be onshore.

    Are you talking about a 80' square kill box?

    Just a question, when did shore guns work against war shipping?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
  19. TorpCruiser

    TorpCruiser Active Member

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    The sinking of the Blücher!


    View: https://youtu.be/qHyyYDaoNuA


    The fort involved even had a Torpedo battery that delivered the final blow.
     
  20. kgaigalas

    kgaigalas Well-Known Member

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    Blucker when down in a fjord (river)

    Looking forward to your build at NATS
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2023