Hello all, I am posting in these forums for the first time at the request of Ronny Hunt. He asked me to give my interpretation of the casemate rules as I was the original writer of them in their current form for the MWC. I have been told that the new IRC rules are the same, so its interpretation should be the same I would figure. Let me start by saying that there is the drawing you should use for the Weather Deck, Casemate deck, and Armor Belt (if you modeled the armor belt into the hull). I would include the photo here if I could figure out how. It is in the MWC rules in Appendix A (I think it is similarly placed in the IRC). It shows that your weather deck is the topmost deck starting from the bow of the ship. In your photos you made most of it removable. The casemates below it are considered part of the hull even if they are removable. The casemates are also not 1/2" from the gunwale (they are close, but not quite) in many places. Those places must be penetrable. Some have argued that all the casemates are more than 1/2" from the gunwale on the baden, but I have the best set of plans that are known to exist (direct from Germany, and borrowed from Fleugel) and the plans show the gunwale for the casemate deck is not 1/2" in most places (Johny Adams' photos are good representations of what it should look like). Unfortunately, the problem has been that people always looked at the plans and measured from the outermost line and assumed that was the point to measure from. It is not, the outermost lines on good baden plans are the armor belt, not the casemate deck. To make the ship legal according to the current rules and in keeping with all the other ships that have been battled in the MWC for the last year, and the current IRC battles after Jan 1st, you need to: 1. Cut the casemates out in many places 2. Make your Weather Deck the topmost deck (1/4" thick if your baden has a modeled Armor Belt, or 3/8" if it doesn't) (see the drawing of where the deck drops down) 3. The Casemate Deck should only be 1/8" thick. 4. The armor belt (if modeled) should only be 1/8" thick. There is one caviat that was allowed and some on ships like Nagato and Baden have decided to use it. *** there is no minimum spacing requirement for decks to be apart as long as they are semi-scale**** What that means for the Baden is thus.... The Baden if built 100% scale has an Armor belt that starts 1/8" below the casemate deck. It sticks out between 1/16-1/8" from the casemate deck. So if you modeled a 100% scale baden you would have a 1/4" weather deck then an 1/8" Casemate Deck, then immediately below that would be the 1/8" Armor Belt. Essentially making that area 1/4" thick. For people refiting badens that would make it easier as long as you model the armor belt to be visible in the hull (thus requiring the stringer). The rule also called out that penetrability of casemates is based on the plans not actual construction to keep people from intentionally moving casemates inward to make them hard. (trying to think through all possible loopholes) When I started writing the rule proposal, the goal was to fix the inequality of ship building where some ships had hard casemates and others had penetrable ones even though they were very similar in construction (we had 4 VDT's at the prior MWC nats and all 4 had different hard area). Most people said that they didn't understand them and that they weren't clear. Many people asked for the rule to be reworded to be clearer, and most asked for diagrams to make it super easy to understand where the hard area goes. The rule as adopted attempted to clarify and fix and to above all make ALL ships follow the rules equally. As CD at the prior several MWC Nationals I have seen ships that I have told they could add more hard area, and some that I had to Chit and have them cut out hard area. What shows up at battles now is mostly captains who know that when they fire a gun at VDT A, B, C, or D they know where a BB will pass through and where one won't. They also know that no matter what they have to do to their ship (add or remove hard area) that everyone else's ships will follow the same standard and be on equal footing. The rule wasn't written for more points or holes, it was to allow ALL captains to know they were playing on an equal field with regard to penetrability. I know that it is hard to cut up a boat that we have fallen in love with. I myself have a Nagato that I have had to rip apart and rebuild to make much much more penetrable. I know though that everyone else follows the same standard and I also am comforted that others can know that my ship is just as penetrable as others on the water. If I can ever figure out how to post a photo, I would be happy to mark up a drawing or scan of the casemates and let you know exactly where they would need to be cut based on the plans I have at my disposal. (hints on posting photos are appreciated) Also if you have questions feel free to e-mail me at timothybeckett@sbcglobal.net or call me at (817)822-3407 and we can chat about any other questions. Catch ya on the flip side, Tim Beckett
Not to turn this thread into a debate on the casemate rules, but I personally feel that if the 'weatherdeck' moves inwards away from the gunwale and never returns to it, any casemates from the point it leaves the gunwale should be solid. To me those are superstructure. If the deck returns to the gunwale making a mere concave shape in the side of the hull, then I think that should be considered part of the hull and penetrable under the normal casemate rules.
I understand the intent of the rule. And back when I battled in the MWC I remember even then the arguments over casements. My difficulty is not with the actual casement penatrable area. It is with the 1/8" thin deck for the Baden. That is too thin to hold up in any circumstances. Half the length of the hull would have a 1/8" thin deck... holy crap, one good bump an the casementdeck will pop right off the hull! The other issue is the so called equality. You mention a set of plans from Germany, I dont have access to those plans. I got mine from George who up till now was who the MWC said had the best and most accurate plans available for us. EVERY set of plans will be different. Even your set from Germany will have mistakes! That is why the rules already have a clause to cover that in the beam and lenght by allowing measurement differences. The same may need to be done for everything else. How can you force me to build my ship in accordance with one certain set of plans that I do not even have access to, but yet allow the rest of the captains to build off of what ever set they have? That is not equal either.
I've battled a Kongo for 1.5 years and battled a Warspite for 6 years that both have 1/8" casement levels. The balsa sticks to this just fine. On Warspite once and a while I'd have to CA glue a section back on at a battle. On Kongo I never have to reglue the balsa. The Kongo hull is very much like your Baden hull. The casement level has held up just fine for me. There are some photos of how I put it together on portporlarbear.com on the articles page. I too was worried about just 1/8" holding it together. But adding 1/4" rib backers and tying them into the 1/4" weather deck and 1/8" casement level worked very well. Your Baden has the added advantage of making the top of the fiberglass hull 1/4", not 1/8". I know the MWC rule pasted by many votes, not sure about the IRC vote differance. I think it's nice to know how each ship should be cut up. Get's rid of all the grey area, interpetation issues and complaints about others ships. George Goff plans are not very good. I can't think of anyone I've talked to who thought they were good. Good enough is how I hear them described most of the time. On a historical note when the master plugs where made for the Baden, Kongo and Moltke the casements were on the plugs. Swampy cut them off or sanded them down. It was too much work to fiberglass them and he didn't want to get in the middle of the casement issue, way back when.
I dont mean to be too upset, maybe just a little... lol I see the casement issue and as always there will be different plans for those measurements. I am glad they are trying to clear it up. But some things are not ever going to satisfy all of us. I am just now getting into this dam rule and it is new and really a pain in the arse. Putting windows in there is not a issue at all, just some drilling... To make the deck 1/8" will take away ALL the HULL from the side except for the verticle ribs... just what will hold up the deck, the balsa skin? not happy about that but oh well....... I'm not going to get any more upset over it. I will just cut out the horizontal glass hull you see in the pics and let the balsa skin holf up the deck... and hope for the best.:blink:. I might try to leave some bulk at the top and angle the cut. Not sure. Maybe try to do what Tim suggested and add the armor belt stringer which will give me a little to go with. I hope they dont give me too much grief about the casements. I will make penatrable areas on the flat areas on each side of the casements. But I am not going to cut into those overhangs, that is just simply too much to ask. Jeff will just have to be chitted for it... Will post some repair pics tonight.
here's the picture Tim wanted to post (I think) It's not a great system but I like all the boats being on a level field. Also Tim indicated according to the rules, your deck could be thicker than just 1/8 with adding of stringer thickness to model other details of hull. cutting straight up and tying into the upper deck with rib thickeners is a great idea. I have used that before. You actually want to make the wood the top of the deck. If I was starting out, I would have sunk the wood in behind the fiberglass an 1/8th thickness and not sat it on top of fiberglass hull but you know how hind sight is....
I think this was actually the picture he was trying to post from Appendix A. The pictures lack resolution and probably need to be redone at some point to clearly show the areas in the casemate that should be penetrable, not just the deck thicknesses. Its kind of hard to see where one color ends and another begins too. I agree with you that in this case where the fiberglass hull is already cut out the best route would be to add in the armor belt stringer to form a new subdeck underneath the casemate deck. Ron Hunt
Thanks Bob, that helps a lot bud....... I am pulling out what little hair I have left..... I will pass I am told.. Here is a couple of pics I did today instead of studying for my exam next week...... Hey ask Tim if he will look at these for me, I will even start a new thread. He can look at each one I do and give us the thumbs up or let me know what corrections to make. I will take and make one for each ship class. Starting with the complicated ones first.. Then we will have a solid look at these decks for folks like me who are hard headed... Bob with your permission I will take your drawing and do a nice diagram as wel for casements. I think a lot of missunderstanding may be is the low res drawings which are hard to read. Tim, Let me know if this will help, I dont mind at all if it helps clear my head and maybe some others as well. Click here for full size Click here for full size
That looks pretty good Bob, that is exactly what I did on my Nagato with putting the ribs on the casemate angles to make sheeting easier. Ron Hunt
Your Baden/Nagato drawings look right. Didn't I meet you at Wade's first battle, like 3 years ago? I'm pretty sure Jeff Lipp took The Bike for battle and you had a VU or Espana you were working on. Maybe it was another guy.
Bob's photo for the casemate cut out looks right to me as long as you have the ribs to spare to be able to use them on the angles like he drew. The Nagato drawing posted here looks Right. The Baden Drawing has the Deck Step too far back. I sent Bob an E-mail with a marked up version of the photo to show where the deck should drop (I don't know how to post it, so I figured I'd ask him to do it for me). Basically it should drop inbetween the last two casemates about 4 inches further towards the bow. The weather deck is supposed to drop at the point where the casemate deck moves inwards past 1/2" and stays inwards of 1/2". You guys appear more Tech savy then me, you are welcome to send me mockups of ships for me to work through and put together for further additions to the Appendix. Making those original drawings took me a while.... someone else helping with it would be nice If you take me up on it, please E-mail the mockups in high resolution so I can check them and put them into a proposal for Modifying Appendix A.
Tim, can you "subscribe" to the deck thread? That way you get a email when I post on it. I will try to keep adding ships as I have time to do them. This line needs to be made clear in the rules. It makes the whole casement thing very clear when added.... The weather deck is supposed to drop at the point where the casemate deck moves inwards past 1/2" and stays inwards of 1/2".
I have returned to work on the Baden once more. In fact, this was the project that I cut my thumb on. The casements and decks have been reworked and cut to meet MWC rules now. I am replacing everything above decks except the funnels. I built these funnels for Jeff when the boat was first made and we wanted to keep something from those days... Besides, they have a nice "Rattle" from all the bb's in them. Still have a lot to go, but she will be ready for NATS. Click here for larger view Click here for larger view Click here for larger view Click here for larger view
Now that the shop is back open I have my first job, to finish Jeff Lipp's Baden. It's been over a year since we worked on her and something new that has come along was the LiFePO4 batteries. When we first started refitting the Baden those batteries cost a small fortune. Now a cell pack with PCM's runs about $88.00. Not too bad! This shio runs on 6vlt so we are using two 3.2vlt - 20AH batteries in serial making the needed 6vlt. The ship will run the same aas my Mutsu, 1 set in the morning and a new set in the pm sorties. And of course with new batteries comes the need to redistribute the weight since those new batteries are only 3.4 lbs total compared to the almost 7lbs before! SO with that comes a brand new water channel! I will say right up front, I wish I had not used Bondo! I use sheet foam for my water channels and then in the past I would use bondo to fill in the racks and seams before painting the hull.... The foam is easy to sand and make the needed internal spaces to hold the batteries, pump, waterbox ect... this way they dont shift. I was very difficult removing the bondo around the sides where I had filled in the seam.. what a pain! But now the sheets are formed and sanded and I am now fitting in the intternal compartments for the modules like the batteries, and pump. Click here for larger view Click here for larger view Click here for larger view Click here for larger view Click here for larger view
I use the green sheet foam instead of the pink crap because it is sandable and resins or CA do not desolve it. You can get it in the states at Lowes. What you see in the ship is 1". They have 3/4" up to 3". The 1" sheet is 15.95 for a 4'x8' sheet and it last a long time... I build supers out of it as well.
