Hey everyone, My name is Nathan, I'm somewhat new to RC naval combat, I have poke around on this forum a few different times under various usernames, but i've never quite had the funding or the time (until now) to actually build anthing. Im interested in building 1:144 scale submarines..It seems that alot of ppl frown on the idea, but i dont really care. Im just interested in replies from anyone who has anthing positive to say. I know underwater torpedos that will do damage at range are somewhat of a stretch (and there is no way i will ever be interested in *bump ramming* the side of an enemy ship to get my torpedoes to deploy)...all im concerned with *for now* is building a operational model (diving/running underwater/surfacing). The submarine im interested in building is the French submarine Surcouf. I saw a model of a japanese I-400 on the "Our ships" page. does anyone have any advice on dive planes, ballast tanks, or overall construction? also is there anyone who has built any fiberglass hulls for the I-400 or Surcouf? If someone already has one laying around that i could purchase that would be great, or if anyone has the means to make a hull for me... Thanks alot, Any help or advice anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated. And sorry if i put this topic in the wrong forum...wasnt really sure where to post it. ~Nathan
Also does anyone know of any (prefferably Big Gun) combat groups in california? I live in sacramento...Thanks lol
Hi Nathan, Welcome to the RCNC forum again. There is a large Big Gun club in the SF Bay Area, it's the Western Warship Combat Club (WWCC). They usually meet in San Jose, but will be in San Mateo for Maker Faire May 21st and May 22nd. There will be live battles both days, and lots of ships on display and captains to talk to. http://makerfaire.com/bayarea/2011/ You can search this forum for mention of submarines and see what other people have had to say. The difficulty is trying to fit everything into a sub at our scale, as even the largest subs don't offer a lot of room or forgiveness for mistakes. If you can post a little bit about your experience in building things and modeling and RC, that can help the rest of the community help you with advice. Keri Morgret, owner RCNC, president Strike Models, member WWCC
Most of the experience i have is with building model airplanes. I built a surcouf fiberglass hull before for 1:144th scale but my calculations on size were off and ended up several inches too long...
I was reading a couple of other topics i found with search on submarine builds, i noticed that submarines are supposed to have a similar penetrable area much like a surface ship. (impenetrable deck and balsa windows in the side of the hull). well it seems that several ppl are not a fan of this and think the deck should have windows as well, why? (for a downward facing "depth charge cannon"?) i realise that some are worried about having an adequate way to attempt to sink a submerged sub, but actually developing a combat ready sub has enough difficulties...why make more? Submarines (unless using a bow button to deploy the torps) have no distance that they can fire from unless using a deck gun wich makes the sub vunerable as soon as it surfaces to try and get a shot off...everything ive been reading says that unless the sub captain is a really good one, subs are really inadequate and are mostly in battle for the "cool" factor...wouldn't it be better to just leave the deck impentetrable and not create another problem when building a sub? As far as a ship attacking a submerged sub why cant it be just that the surface ship hasn't developed a succeful enough depth charge??...ive read about the ideas of dropping a weighted string...and depth charge methods...im not seeing any that seem that great. Does anyone have the full size to 1:144 scale dimensions of the French Surcouf?
You can get the Surcouf plans on the French site. http://www.servicehistorique.sga.de...php?id=472 From there you can scale the plans appropriately.
Ahoy Nathan, glad to have you aboard. I hail from the WWCC, the nearest club to you. I believe we have a member out your way. I'll ask around. Meanwhile, you asked some questions about subs, so I will answer. I have been fascinated by subs since I joined the WWCC in 2004. I've been researching and planning almost continuously since then, studying the previous submarines in the club and learning how to do better. I have seen four subs in action, studied three of them up close, and helped a master shipbuilder design the I-402. I also attend the local SubRegatta whenever possible, to study non-combat RC submarines as well. I don't know everything about building and battling submarines, but I do know quite a lot. You asked: 1) for advice on diving planes and ballast tanks? My observations have shown that diving planes alone are barely sufficient. The only two successfully diving subs in the club used diving planes only, but it was very tricky to ballast them deep enough to dive at 25 knots, without sinking to the bottom. Even when properly ballasted, the slightest leak would prove fatal within a few minutes. On the other hand, a gas-powered ballast tank takes up a large amount of space in a ship that doesn't have much space to begin with. Furthermore, you will be surfacing and diving repeatedly to attack others and defend yourself, and gas ballast systems run out after only a few blows. So I would recommend that you use a servo-driven plunger ballast tank and diving planes. Make it big and short, and use a powerful servo to actuate it. There used to be a good commercially-manufactured ballast tank that was almost ideal for our hobby, but I haven't seen it for several years. If I find it again, I will let you know. The other option is to go without diving. This is perfectly valid, as submarines can be a fearsome foe even without diving. The I-402 that I helped build is a surface-runner, and it is already racking up quite a reputation and collection of silhouettes after only a few battles. It has very little target area above the water, is a real tough customer in close quarters, and has a powerful bilge pump. That last feature is something you'll have a hard time installing on a diving sub, but improves your survivability many times over. I should also mention that the surface-running I-402 has the room and capability to add diving planes, but the skipper specifically chose not to include them in order to get a simpler, deadlier boat. 2) if there are any fiberglass hulls? I do not know about the Surcouf, but there are a number of I-400 hulls out there. I've got a couple from one supplier, and I know there's another group working on another mold. Information on that project is located elsewhere on this forum. I'd be willing to bet, though, that you can buy the current Surcouf off the skipper who built it, if you come visit our club and talk with him in person. He loves to help new members get started, especially if they want Allied ships. I don't think I would recommend that route for your first ship, though, since any submarine is NOT a good rookie boat. 3) what's the deal with penetrable decks? Apparently there are some people in other clubs who think submarines should have penetrable decks. Fortunately, there is nobody that crazy in the WWCC. Submarines are hard enough already, and nobody here wants to add to their difficulties by requiring them to make their hatches out of soft squishy balsa. The idea of downward-firing cannons is simply absurd. Subs are simply too rare for anyone to build a specialized vessel with a "depth charge" gun to hunt them. Not to mention the difficulty of actually hitting. It is actually perfectly effective to send one or two torpedo-destroyers or torpedo-cruisers after a submarine, to pursue and harry it the entire time. At the very least they will force it under, and with even a little luck they can shoot it with their torpedoes. And if submarines do become common enough to require a more serious response, we have other techniques to "depth charge" a submarine that don't involve sinking a ship that cannot possibly mount an emergency float in 8 feet of water. I would highly recommend that you come visit the WWCC for a battle. The Maker Faire is a great option if you want to see us battle. If you want actual face-time with skippers and an up-close look at the ships, you'll also want to come to our June battle. You can view our schedule and battle locations here: http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=52
Ballast tank with a plunger? would that maybe cause any leaking problems around the plunger seal? Would a ballast tank with a small bilge pump work? Also if the dive planes go pitch up and down, how does one seal it so no water leaks around them...? does the supplier you got your I-400 hulls from still make them? does it come with the deck and superstructure? Does the skipper with the Surcouf use this forum? Also do you have any pictures of it or other submarines? Sorry i know its alot of questions lol Thanks
If you dive deep enough to have significant leakage problems around the plunger, you likely are deep enough that your balsa hull is imploding.
^^^^^^ahahaha best to avoid that thanks lol, are there any good manufactures of ballast tanks with plungers or is that something im gonna have to fab myself?
I think Kotori has the right of it. Make a surface runner to start with but leave space for diving innards.
The WWCC (if that is the format you will be building to) rules should have a maximum weight of the Surcouf.
i looked through the entire WWCC rule book and wasnt able to find weight specs for either the I400 or surcouf.. Thanks for the help, ~Nate
Scale weight would roughly be heavy displacement of the original (Surcouf was around 4000 tons max?) * 2000 (or 2200 if original in long tons), / 144^3 (assuming 144 scale), which puts the Surcouf at about 3lbs scale weight. Most rules though have an allowance for you to deepen the draft of a small vessel and add additional weight in order to make it work though, so if you were to do this that number would obviously change. Depending on local club rules, YMMV. Note: Numbers above are not official and are off the top of my head and are probably off.
I recommend you visit http://support.caswellplating.com/i...ling-files and down load the file called pros and cons of ballast systems. It has very good descriptions of the most common type of ballast systems, except for piston tanks. Good luck, I'm trying to figure out how to make a working sub too. I think I have settled on a static diver with a snorkel system, but I haven't decided on the best way to get the water in and out.
The WWCC doesn't go by weight, it goes by waterline. All ships must float at scale waterline. Submarines have an unofficial exception to that; we've sort of overlooked the scale waterline requirement because, if you stick to the letter of the law, subs wouldn't be allowed to dive in the first place. We also allow up to an inch of extra depth, so displacement isn't the real issue in submarines, it's space. Subs are skinny, and have even skinnier access points. All the hardware is bulky, and getting it into the sub in such a way that you can take it out again for maintenance is very, very difficult. For diving, a compact two-way pump and water sac may be a good idea. The trick is to find a compact, sealed two-directional pump. I don't know of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure others on this forum can point you in the right direction. It will be slow to fully inflate or deflate, so you'd probably want to trim down to about neutral buoyancy then do any fine-tuning with your diving planes. To seal those diving planes, you can use some of these: http://www.caswellplating.com/models/propeller.html I don't know the original source of my I-400 hulls. I got them from a friend who got them from the guy who made them, and I haven't heard anything about similar I-400 hulls. I think the guy stopped making them, or maybe only did one production run. I'll ask my friend when I see him this weekend. A lot of WWCCers are old-fashioned: they don't do much email and have no interest in forums, no matter how I try to get them on. So probably the best way to find out more from the other submariners in the WWCC is to visit one of our battles in person.
Regardless of the displacement allowance, I would recommend trying an unarmed version first. There are a couple rc sub message boards out there that could be good for figuring out to deal w/ typical rc sub issues like oscillation when diving some go as far as having electronics to keep the sub at an even keel while it is submerged. However, their typical setup is a cylinder setup w/ diving ballast and such that is too heavy and too big for what we do. Another thing to know you will need a FM transmitter spread spectrum transmitters do not penetrate the water.
I have a fibreglass 1/144 surcouf hull, and it will be a challenging build to have a diving unarmed model. I would recommend you think about the I400 as it is much more spacious.
...keeping in mind that that is not saying a whole lot of space is available in I400. I believe Bob Pottle told me that the hull I have (from an old mold) was not fully to scale, I can't remember if he said that it was too deep, or not deep enough. I have a ballast tank and tiny air compressor fitted, but not much else at this point.
