I agree, they were well adapted to their positions, and the only reason you believe they were a failure, is because during major battles, they were used in the battle line(because of its large guns), which is only as fast as its slowest member. thus its capabilities weren't utilized
The problem here is they were built for a different time period. Yes they were scouts. At Jutland they could not really get out of the way fast enough. Just like the British Battlecruisers that thought they could fight toe to toe in the Battle line. The ships had defects. Very thin armour. Had problems with plunging fire through weak decks. As I see it with the ACs they are undergunned and armoured to take on a Dreadnaught vessel. Visibility plays a big part in a battle. 22,00o yards is a lot of distance to make up to get in range of the Goeben. Set the same battle up at say 10,000 yards ala North Sea I would give them a good chance. I will let you know how it turns out
The bottom line was by 1914, the ACRs were hopelessly obsolete and outdated. Their original 5 knot speed advantage (23 knots to 18 knots) had dwindled to a 2 knot advantage in most cases (23 knots to 21 knots thanks to Dreadnought and her ilk) and sometimes less (23 knots + from more then a few different classes such as the QE and Kaiser). That lack of speed means they couldn't get away easily once in gun range. That makes using them as "scouts" a pretty dicey proposition. Ask the crews of Warrior, Defense, and Black Prince. As raiders, they were also hopelessly flawed as they could be run down by BCs. Ask Von Spee how well raiding worked out for him, as Invincible and Inflexible caught him and pounded his fleet into the grave off Falkland Islands. The ONLY role for which the old ACRs were still well suited was convoy escort, such as the slow BB's were used for in WW2 by the British. The ACR had the firepower to keep merchant raiders (Q-ships) and CLs such as Emden away, even if it couldn't run them down and kill them. I don't think German commerce raiding lasted much into 1915 though, so the mission for which they were best suited was no longer necessary.
Raiding worked pretty well for von Spee until he encoutered the battlecruisers (which were born as armored cruisers themselves, the term battlecruiser not moving into general parlance until about 1912). Which brings up the other vexing question of what if Canopus had been at Coronel? One thing to remember about Goeben vs. the Armored Cruisers, German tactical doctrine at the start of the war did not envision fighting at more than about 10,000 yards, which does nullify the range advantage of the 11" guns. Goeben's paper speed advantage was also pretty moot due to leaky boiler tubes and a very pressing need to not run out of coal before getting to the Turks.
How many merchies did Von Spee bag? Not being flip, I really don't know how effective at killing merchies and disrupting commerce Von SPee was. You'd think he'd have been more effective dispersing the fleet...then again, the whole fleet would have been needed should the Austraila battlegroup show itself...
I'm not sure Canpous would have made much of a difference. Vs the old pre-dread, Spee would have retained a significant speed advantage and been able to disengage. Craddock would have then had to choose to either persue with his faster ships (dictating the historical outcome) or, let Spee leave and risk ending his career much as the guy from the Goeben fiasco (Troubridge was it? I'm a WW2 guy mostly). Even had they fought, my money would be on the Germans, based on numerous factors: ship age, condition, crew experience and morale. I think the two British ACRs would be knocked out fairly quickly allowing the Germans to concentrate their fire on the pre-dread. I don't think it would have ended well for the British and the propaganda victory would be huge. That said, I think the Germans would have been worse off then historical, probably losing one of the ACRs.
I would tend to agree with that assessment. I doubt Spee would have lost one of the ACR's but the munitions expended would have been disasterous. I would imagine they would have to run for a neutral port and be interned as they would be unable to fight any longer. With the PR victory of knocking out a British Battleship (no matter how obsolete) von Spee gets to be a national hero and spend the war safely in South America.
Again I am int war gaming. I will do research and do a few of the battles with the Conopus. I have these vessels in 1/6000th scale. I will do them, at future conventions I attend.Number of guns are very important as the more guns vessel had the better chance of hitting at these ranges.As far as that 10,000 yard range limit, who knows when that Captain would have open fired. Every nation at the beginning of the war did not envision these long range fights. That is the neat thing about naval war gaming. One could set the range at 22,00o yards and then do one at 10,000 yards. That gentleman that said we are out of line here is right. Want to do a new topic. Love to talk history.
Not even a day, & you were already trying to stifle discussion that you don't like, privately e-mailing people to tell them what they can or can't say. I truly pity anybody who honestly thinks that they've seen everything. What an awful existence that must be, to never have any surprises, no joy of new discoveries, no adventure of learning something new. I hope I never get to be like that. JM
That would be fun I should think. History is a part of why we all are into this hobby to begin with. Armchair or at least computer chair admirals.[]
How is Dan stifling conversation? He revived this thread with valid comments that it will be very difficult to convince members of the WWCC to give up their WW2 BBs for WW1 dreadnoughts, as well as starting a discussion on the merits of armored cruisers.
I have to agree with Gascan; I don't think that he was stifling the discussion at all, rather he was bringing up some valid points. This topic has actually come up in Treaty, where some of the members are fans of the WW1 ships and would prefer to do something like 1900-1922 period ships. Now for me, my love is WW2 cruisers. I have about zero interest in most ww1 dreadnoughts, and I will continue to oppose ww1 only battles in my club. While my primary ship is a WW1 BC, the ONLY reason, is because I can't put sidemounts on a heavy cruiser. If I could build a 4.0 unit Salt Lake City armed with sidemounts, my world would be complete. I think it's a mistake to alienate people who like the ww2 ships better, and that's why I will oppose it in my club. That said, this thread started out as 1/72 scale (a scale which I DEFINITELY have no interest in), and I certainly wouldn't consider ww2 sized ships in that scale even if I were interested in 1/72, so limiting the ships to the ww1 period isn't going to alienate any existing members, but only potentially turn some newer guys off before joining up.
True, As you can guess my area of interest is Predreadnoughts and WW1 Dreadnoughts. If you compare the relative sizes of your average predread to a WW2 Fast Battleship you'll see that no rule set can cover both and expect both areas of interest to be happy. If you calculate the dimensions and weight of an average predreadnought in 1/72 scale, you'll see that they are hardly any larger than a WW2 BB in 1/144. Size and weight equal space, space for guns and equipment. In 1/144, only the largest ships really have the space needed to arm all their weapons (Big Gun). I'm not trying to end all other clubs and styles of battling, I'm trying to create a new one to complement them, one for a us predread fans.
Oh, I don't for a second think you are trying to end other people's battling, far from it. I phrased that pretty poorly. I think that's one of the beauties of our hobby, is that we can cater to many different eras in the same battle, and feel pretty competitive. In small gun, the WW1 BBs actually do fairly well against the big fast BBs of WW2, and I really like that. I like seeing the WW1 ships on the water even if they aren't my primary interest. I'd like to see someone build some hypotheticals, even though I don't particularly like them. That's why I am opposed to my club limiting things to WW1 only. I just don't want to tell someone they can't build a ship they like. My ideal club would be about 1/120 scale, (which ever scale where 1 inch = 1 foot...makes the math easy) and limited to ships with guns of 8.1 inches or less...so mostly WW2 cruisers and destroyers and using small gun technology and penetration rules. As far as arming everything, that's one of big gun's biggest turn offs to me. I simply don't want to maintain all that junk. I like the simpler small gun ships. One gun/one balsa sheet fits all. If I ever did a big gun ship, it would probably be a Torpedo cruiser and I'd probably have to live in Australia, because that's the only legal form of battlin'.
crzyhawk, The only reason I left out WW2 era ships in the rule set I've written (to be posted as soon as they are finished with some real-world testing to back up certain variables) is they are simply leaps and bounds ahead of earlier ships. It wasn't because of some deep rooted personal dislike for later ships. I'm a big fan of earlier ships and ironclads, so the rules allow anything built or in service between 1880 and 1922. But the real focus is ships built between 1880 and about 1908, this large group is a fairly homogenous group (at least in displacement) of ships with an increase (at the end) to what I consider a reasonable amount of scale growth. After 1908, ships really start moving past the 20,000 ton range ( about 100lbs. in 1/72 scale). Of course the later ships up to 1922 become exceedingly powerful and fast, its not without the penalty of ever increasing weight. My rules start from the bottom and work up, meaning that even smallest and weakest of the armored ships have some chance of being built with armament. You can build a super dreadnought, but plan going into uncharted territory in terms of size.
